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It seems like the original post may be just a little biased against Matrix in favour of XMPP ;) Matrix has been going strong for 10 years, and while it's true

It seems like the original post may be just a little biased against Matrix in favour of XMPP ;) Matrix has been going strong for 10 years, and while it's true that the Matrix.org Foundation (and Element) need funding (c.f. https://matrix.org/blog/2024/01/2024-roadmap-and-fundraiser/ https://matrix.org/blog/2024/01/2024-roadmap-and-fundraiser/ and https://matrix.org/blog/2024/04/open-source-publicly-funded-service https://matrix.org/blog/2024/04/open-source-publicly-funded-...) it's clear that elsewhere in the Matrix ecosystem there's loads of $ flying around: https://techcrunch.com/2024/04/09/wordpress-com-owner-automattic-acquires-multi-service-messaging-app-beeper-for-125m/ https://techcrunch.com/2024/04/09/wordpress-com-owner-automa... etc. So I think it's a little ridiculous to call Matrix "unsustainable" (at least any more than any other FOSS project). > I've really enjoyed running our community on Matrix. I'm glad, thank you for using it.

komali2 3y ago
> I'm glad, thank you for using it. Of course! We love how easy it is to get bots up and running, and the ecosystem of bridges made it really easy to incentivize people to onboard, because we can basically offer "for free" the ability for people to answer their instagram messages without opening instagram, etc. Our only issue has been onboarding flow. We get that there's an "identity server" but when we use vector.im and generate invite links from for example Element, they usually get sent into a flow where they, confusingly, are making an account on some big home server instead of ours (I think like matrix.org or something). We were going to deploy our own identity server after someone on iirc matrix community chat somewhere mentioned that the email flow is implemented per identity server, but all the FOSS identity servers we could find were deprecated. Anyway now we just give people tokens that we generate in synapse and screenshot instructions lol. The one thing I miss from slack is being able to just right click a Room, click "invite," enter someone's email address, and it's all handled from there.
SamWhited 3y ago
It's not less sustainable than most other FOSS projects, it's just that most other FOSS projects also don't have sustainable funding. If you're just comparing the actual implementations this is true of most XMPP stuff as well. However, that's not what's being talked about here most likely (though it's unclear since when we just say "Matrix" or "XMPP" we're talking about a protocol, not a service, client, server, etc. so who knows). If you compare Matrix the foundation/company, they are VC funded (the foundation is a bit of a sham after community pressure, it's all the same people and accounts controlling it, so it's a step in the right direction but not really well established). The moment that funding dries up, or the Element people (who still mostly control protocol work) decide they want to monetize the users more, the whole thing will fall apart. That's unsustainable. Meanwhile proper standards organizations like the IETF or XSF have been going for way longer than 10 years and have proven track records of sustainable funding and membership. People just like to pretend it's worse somehow because they're not building sexy looking software themselves with millions in VC funding. In reality infrastructure is never sexy, and if it's using unsustainable funding models it will fail. This seems like a good reason to pick something controlled by a real standards body over something that's not if you want a long-term community. (P.S. Since someone once accused me of bias and deliberately not mentioning this even though I'm completely open about it: I have volunteered for the XSF and have done work on both Matrix and XMPP related products and open source projects; I chose to volunteer for the XSF after working on both protocols and evaluating their funding and leadership, so take that for what it's worth)
- Arathorn 3y ago
  > If you compare Matrix the foundation/company, they are VC funded (the foundation is a bit of a sham after community pressure, it's all the same people and accounts controlling it, This not true. Element (the company set up by the original Matrix team to fund their work) may be VC funded - but the Matrix.org Foundation is entirely separate, with its own leadership (the Managing Director is Josh Simmons, formerly president of OSI), its own accounts, and is funded by memberships and donations. It’s also electing its own governing board in the next few weeks: https://matrix.org/blog/2023/12/electing-our-first-governing-board/#election-timeline https://matrix.org/blog/2023/12/electing-our-first-governing... Calling it a “sham” is demonstrably untrue, and far from pleasant.

komali2 3y ago

> I'm glad, thank you for using it. Of course! We love how easy it is to get bots up and running, and the ecosystem of bridges made it really easy to incentivize people to onboard, because we can basically offer "for free" the ability for people to answer their instagram messages without opening instagram, etc. Our only issue has been onboarding flow. We get that there's an "identity server" but when we use vector.im and generate invite links from for example Element, they usually get sent into a flow where they, confusingly, are making an account on some big home server instead of ours (I think like matrix.org or something). We were going to deploy our own identity server after someone on iirc matrix community chat somewhere mentioned that the email flow is implemented per identity server, but all the FOSS identity servers we could find were deprecated. Anyway now we just give people tokens that we generate in synapse and screenshot instructions lol. The one thing I miss from slack is being able to just right click a Room, click "invite," enter someone's email address, and it's all handled from there.

SamWhited 3y ago

It's not less sustainable than most other FOSS projects, it's just that most other FOSS projects also don't have sustainable funding. If you're just comparing the actual implementations this is true of most XMPP stuff as well. However, that's not what's being talked about here most likely (though it's unclear since when we just say "Matrix" or "XMPP" we're talking about a protocol, not a service, client, server, etc. so who knows). If you compare Matrix the foundation/company, they are VC funded (the foundation is a bit of a sham after community pressure, it's all the same people and accounts controlling it, so it's a step in the right direction but not really well established). The moment that funding dries up, or the Element people (who still mostly control protocol work) decide they want to monetize the users more, the whole thing will fall apart. That's unsustainable. Meanwhile proper standards organizations like the IETF or XSF have been going for way longer than 10 years and have proven track records of sustainable funding and membership. People just like to pretend it's worse somehow because they're not building sexy looking software themselves with millions in VC funding. In reality infrastructure is never sexy, and if it's using unsustainable funding models it will fail. This seems like a good reason to pick something controlled by a real standards body over something that's not if you want a long-term community. (P.S. Since someone once accused me of bias and deliberately not mentioning this even though I'm completely open about it: I have volunteered for the XSF and have done work on both Matrix and XMPP related products and open source projects; I chose to volunteer for the XSF after working on both protocols and evaluating their funding and leadership, so take that for what it's worth)

Arathorn 3y ago
> If you compare Matrix the foundation/company, they are VC funded (the foundation is a bit of a sham after community pressure, it's all the same people and accounts controlling it, This not true. Element (the company set up by the original Matrix team to fund their work) may be VC funded - but the Matrix.org Foundation is entirely separate, with its own leadership (the Managing Director is Josh Simmons, formerly president of OSI), its own accounts, and is funded by memberships and donations. It’s also electing its own governing board in the next few weeks: https://matrix.org/blog/2023/12/electing-our-first-governing-board/#election-timeline https://matrix.org/blog/2023/12/electing-our-first-governing... Calling it a “sham” is demonstrably untrue, and far from pleasant.