4 ms·

I disagree, people just need to learn to suck it up and learn how the fuck to to use IRC. We HAVE technology can get the job done already. People just h ave

by daeros 3y ago

I disagree, people just need to learn to suck it up and learn how the fuck to to use IRC. We HAVE technology can get the job done already. People just h ave to get used to it and start using it.

lenerdenator 3y ago
If IRC was usable for most people, Discord would not exist. But it's not.
- daeros 3y ago
  I beg to differ, most people are whiny spoiled brats who could easily suck it up and learn how to use IRC if they were determined enough to do so, this is not a matter of ability, it's a matter of will.
  - shepherdjerred 3y ago
    You can't just make people do what you want because you think it's better. IRC is unusable to the average person without significant investment whereas Discord is immediately familiar. Discord is more popular than IRC because to most people it's better.
    - daeros 3y ago
      It astonishes me that the prospect of being on a platform where literally you would never have to pay for access to anything that could be digitized again in your entire life is not enough incentive to overcome this reluctance. IRC is the motherload from where all Warez originates. How the fuck is that not enough?
      - seanw444 3y ago
        Everthing is a tradeoff between convenience and freedom. Clearly the majority of people have decided convenience beats freedom.
      - Gigachad 3y ago
        IRC does not work on mobile without paying a 3rd party to proxy it for you.
        ranger_danger 3y ago
        demonstrably false
        daeros 3y ago
        Further, even if it were the case, it's the fault of android and Apple developers for having failed to implement a client for mobile. An issue that could and ought to be resolved.
        Gigachad 3y ago
        You can’t create a proper client for it because IRC does not have a standardised backlog functionality.
        daeros 3y ago
        Um if you need backlogging, as I noted, a Bouncer will provide. if they don't provide it for free hosting this on something like a digital ocean droplet can implement it, but then again, it can get expensive. https://github.com/znc/znc https://github.com/znc/znc
        Gigachad 3y ago
        Everyone needs backlogging. If you open your phone, check a chat, but can only read messages sent at the exact moment you had the chat open, it doesn’t work. Telling everyone to rent a VPS and run a server to hack in an essential feature is insane.
        daeros 3y ago
        I Don't. I barely use my smartphone and Heavily prefer my fully featured laptop. https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/chathistory https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/chathistory Plus, again, IT's not necessary to rent a VPS. IrcV3 has a module for backlogging. You just have to actually plug it in and use it.
    - daeros 3y ago
      And of that familiarity, I could instantly skewer it rather quickly in the sense that Discord is a bloated RAM hog that uses too many system resources, and will slow a gamers PC down. Honestly, ventrilo was superior for gamers. And IRCloud fixes most of their complaints. They should prefer lightweight voice chat protocols.
      - Martinussen 3y ago
        > Discord is a bloated RAM hog that uses too many system resources, and will slow a gamers PC down. Not enough to matter for the vast majority of people, not even humanly noticeable for most of them. How does that skewer anything? Most people have Chrome running in the background behind their games too, maybe one or two apps like G-hub or Razer(whatever they call theirs), one to several apps like steam/origin/epic games, etc.. This clearly isn't a relevant argument to normal users, or to serious/professional gamers.
  - ParetoOptimal 3y ago
    People not programming their computers with a needle, magnet, and steady hand are whiny spoiled brats who need to suck it up. /s UX, usability, and accessibility all matter.
    - daeros 3y ago
      "UX, usability, and accessibility all matter." Alright. https://www.irccloud.com/ https://www.irccloud.com/ fixd.
    - daeros 3y ago
      Every "problem" the IRC protocol faces, including UX, can be fixed.
    - daeros 3y ago
      Why waste time redeveloping the wheel when what we should be doing is modernizing IRC to bring it into the 2020s and adapting what we already have and know works into something more familiar to these n00bs?
  - moe_sc 3y ago
    There is probably a lot of stuff you don't know, that would be quite helpful for you. Are you a whiny, spoiled brat, now that you don't know all of it? No, sometimes you need to know something to see it's value.
  - moe_sc 3y ago
    There is probably a lot of stuff you don't know, that would be quite helpful for you. Are you a whiny, spoiled brat, now that you don't know all of it? No, sometimes you need to know something to see it's value.
    - daeros 3y ago
      People don't know a lot about IRC so they don't see it's value.
- weikju 3y ago
  back in the 90s and early 2000s I knew plenty of non-technical users who were fine using IRC or "mIRC" cuz they didn't know the difference between the app and the protocol/servers. Companies are capitalizing on this ignorance now and somehow convinces even us techies that our decentralized/open stuff is inferior to their lockin, and so the cycle just continues with a bit more shit at every step..
  - lenerdenator 3y ago
    Since the 90s and 00s, a lot has changed with how internet services are accessed and used. The problem of "how do I get people to use and fund my server" is still an unanswered one by projects that implement a lot of FLOSS-based services. It's a bit better than it used to be, but if I suggested that my Discord servers try my new IRC system that I hosted somewhere, most people are just going to pass because it's not going to have the level of polish and ease-of-use they're used to from group chat applications.
    - daeros 3y ago
      Which frustrates us oldies because that polish is literally all it is. Even images are as simple as loading the image someone links in chat in the browser.
blackeyeblitzar 3y ago
I wonder if IRC or other alternatives are easy to ban somehow. Like if all “acceptable” users are on walled garden platforms will ISPs or regulations eventually ban everything else. It would be better if all the walled garden usage was also on these alternatives.
ranger_danger 3y ago
I disagree with your disagree. You can't change people and you can't expect them to be any smarter than they are right now, which is not enough to use IRC no matter how much you expect them to be able to learn how to.
- daeros 3y ago
  I find it highly sus, what you're saying, in that I don't think these people are as dumb, as they want to trick us all into thinknig they are, they pretend, to have a helpelessn and a disability, that they do not truly have, in ordre to give themselves and an excuse not to, it's learned helplessness, it's not genuine incapability.
thiht 3y ago
Come on, IRC doesn’t even begin to address the needs of today. It sucks in many ways. A better suggestion is to use Matrix/Element, Mattermost or RocketChat. Not IRC or XMPP.
- daeros 3y ago
  What if I told you, that I have no interest in addressing the needs of today? Because I feel the whole smartphone revolution was a mistake, and we'd be better off chucking ours all into a river and calling it a day. I get wanting mobility, I don't get wanting to scale things down to the point where it fits in a single hand, especially because, the smartphone manufactures seem to not want to allow the same kind of freedom and flexibility available on the PC to their smartphones. The "Smart" part of a "Smartphone" makes them in fact mini tablet personal computers, and that they don't offer the kind of control only a PC does to their end user, is unforgivable. It's a shame, the world favors convenience over freedom.
  - thiht 3y ago
    What if I told you you're not the only user on the internet? Discord crushed IRC in popularity because it offers people what they want. Simple as that.
    - daeros 3y ago
      And? IRC offers me the lack of bloat I prefer, it lacks the features they want, but I specifically want to merely be modules and plugins that you can opt out of if you don't want the overhead of having to bother with them. It also offers me access to the bots that enable me to get out in front and join the BitTorrent swarm early so that I actually build ratio on private bit torrent trackers. The whole problem with discord's approach is that if I disagree with the preferences of these users, I cannot meaningfully opt out. Discord is just one big blob of features and if you want to strip out unwanted ones you can't because it's a complete package.
jhanschoo 3y ago
In terms of community, what do you have to lose by hosting discord before moving to a freer option when an event like this happens? The friction seems to me the same. In terms of logging history, you could use a bot anyway on discord. This is generally not more friction than fully controlling logs in a freer option.
fragmede 3y ago
“Suck it up”? That attitude is why we have Discord and why it’s so popular, and also why IRC is not. People want features like scrollback when they’re not connected without having a set up screen session via SSH. They want to mobile app, It doesn’t even have to be that good of a mobile app. Yeah, I know you can do all of these things with IRC but people just want it all nicely packaged up by a company who has a UX team to make things nice and easy For them. Looking at the success of slack, there’s a lot of money to be had if you don’t try and force people to “suck it up”. There are good salesmen and bad salesmen, and telling customers to “suck it up “ is not a winning move.
- daeros 3y ago
  Firstly, IRC is not a Product anyone is trying to sell, I am an IRC evangelist, advocating for an old but adequate technology that can be configured to add the functions that people demand. IRC is not a Product, we are not salesmen, we are Enthusiast. This distinction is meaningful enough to merit pointing out. Do you think when I came to IRC, I didn't notice that the UX was actually rather ugly? It was readily apparent to me, I simply felt other things were more important. It wasn't the priority. The same is true of money, being able to take part in the gift economy of the hacker under world is of more value to me than money.
  - iimblack 3y ago
    I mean sure but that means nothing to the average user. You have to appeal to your audience, unfortunately, and the audience of mass users has shown time and again that ux is extremely important over anything else.

by daeros 3y ago

I disagree, people just need to learn to suck it up and learn how the fuck to to use IRC. We HAVE technology can get the job done already. People just h ave to get used to it and start using it.

lenerdenator 3y ago

If IRC was usable for most people, Discord would not exist. But it's not.

daeros 3y ago
I beg to differ, most people are whiny spoiled brats who could easily suck it up and learn how to use IRC if they were determined enough to do so, this is not a matter of ability, it's a matter of will.
- shepherdjerred 3y ago
  You can't just make people do what you want because you think it's better. IRC is unusable to the average person without significant investment whereas Discord is immediately familiar. Discord is more popular than IRC because to most people it's better.
  - daeros 3y ago
    It astonishes me that the prospect of being on a platform where literally you would never have to pay for access to anything that could be digitized again in your entire life is not enough incentive to overcome this reluctance. IRC is the motherload from where all Warez originates. How the fuck is that not enough?
    - seanw444 3y ago
      Everthing is a tradeoff between convenience and freedom. Clearly the majority of people have decided convenience beats freedom.
    - Gigachad 3y ago
      IRC does not work on mobile without paying a 3rd party to proxy it for you.
      - ranger_danger 3y ago
        demonstrably false
        daeros 3y ago
        Further, even if it were the case, it's the fault of android and Apple developers for having failed to implement a client for mobile. An issue that could and ought to be resolved.
        Gigachad 3y ago
        You can’t create a proper client for it because IRC does not have a standardised backlog functionality.
        daeros 3y ago
        Um if you need backlogging, as I noted, a Bouncer will provide. if they don't provide it for free hosting this on something like a digital ocean droplet can implement it, but then again, it can get expensive. https://github.com/znc/znc https://github.com/znc/znc
        Gigachad 3y ago
        Everyone needs backlogging. If you open your phone, check a chat, but can only read messages sent at the exact moment you had the chat open, it doesn’t work. Telling everyone to rent a VPS and run a server to hack in an essential feature is insane.
        daeros 3y ago
        I Don't. I barely use my smartphone and Heavily prefer my fully featured laptop. https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/chathistory https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/chathistory Plus, again, IT's not necessary to rent a VPS. IrcV3 has a module for backlogging. You just have to actually plug it in and use it.
  - daeros 3y ago
    And of that familiarity, I could instantly skewer it rather quickly in the sense that Discord is a bloated RAM hog that uses too many system resources, and will slow a gamers PC down. Honestly, ventrilo was superior for gamers. And IRCloud fixes most of their complaints. They should prefer lightweight voice chat protocols.
    - Martinussen 3y ago
      > Discord is a bloated RAM hog that uses too many system resources, and will slow a gamers PC down. Not enough to matter for the vast majority of people, not even humanly noticeable for most of them. How does that skewer anything? Most people have Chrome running in the background behind their games too, maybe one or two apps like G-hub or Razer(whatever they call theirs), one to several apps like steam/origin/epic games, etc.. This clearly isn't a relevant argument to normal users, or to serious/professional gamers.
- ParetoOptimal 3y ago
  People not programming their computers with a needle, magnet, and steady hand are whiny spoiled brats who need to suck it up. /s UX, usability, and accessibility all matter.
  - daeros 3y ago
    "UX, usability, and accessibility all matter." Alright. https://www.irccloud.com/ https://www.irccloud.com/ fixd.
  - daeros 3y ago
    Every "problem" the IRC protocol faces, including UX, can be fixed.
  - daeros 3y ago
    Why waste time redeveloping the wheel when what we should be doing is modernizing IRC to bring it into the 2020s and adapting what we already have and know works into something more familiar to these n00bs?
- moe_sc 3y ago
  There is probably a lot of stuff you don't know, that would be quite helpful for you. Are you a whiny, spoiled brat, now that you don't know all of it? No, sometimes you need to know something to see it's value.
- moe_sc 3y ago
  There is probably a lot of stuff you don't know, that would be quite helpful for you. Are you a whiny, spoiled brat, now that you don't know all of it? No, sometimes you need to know something to see it's value.
  - daeros 3y ago
    People don't know a lot about IRC so they don't see it's value.
weikju 3y ago
back in the 90s and early 2000s I knew plenty of non-technical users who were fine using IRC or "mIRC" cuz they didn't know the difference between the app and the protocol/servers. Companies are capitalizing on this ignorance now and somehow convinces even us techies that our decentralized/open stuff is inferior to their lockin, and so the cycle just continues with a bit more shit at every step..
- lenerdenator 3y ago
  Since the 90s and 00s, a lot has changed with how internet services are accessed and used. The problem of "how do I get people to use and fund my server" is still an unanswered one by projects that implement a lot of FLOSS-based services. It's a bit better than it used to be, but if I suggested that my Discord servers try my new IRC system that I hosted somewhere, most people are just going to pass because it's not going to have the level of polish and ease-of-use they're used to from group chat applications.
  - daeros 3y ago
    Which frustrates us oldies because that polish is literally all it is. Even images are as simple as loading the image someone links in chat in the browser.

blackeyeblitzar 3y ago

I wonder if IRC or other alternatives are easy to ban somehow. Like if all “acceptable” users are on walled garden platforms will ISPs or regulations eventually ban everything else. It would be better if all the walled garden usage was also on these alternatives.

ranger_danger 3y ago

I disagree with your disagree. You can't change people and you can't expect them to be any smarter than they are right now, which is not enough to use IRC no matter how much you expect them to be able to learn how to.

daeros 3y ago
I find it highly sus, what you're saying, in that I don't think these people are as dumb, as they want to trick us all into thinknig they are, they pretend, to have a helpelessn and a disability, that they do not truly have, in ordre to give themselves and an excuse not to, it's learned helplessness, it's not genuine incapability.

thiht 3y ago

Come on, IRC doesn’t even begin to address the needs of today. It sucks in many ways. A better suggestion is to use Matrix/Element, Mattermost or RocketChat. Not IRC or XMPP.

daeros 3y ago
What if I told you, that I have no interest in addressing the needs of today? Because I feel the whole smartphone revolution was a mistake, and we'd be better off chucking ours all into a river and calling it a day. I get wanting mobility, I don't get wanting to scale things down to the point where it fits in a single hand, especially because, the smartphone manufactures seem to not want to allow the same kind of freedom and flexibility available on the PC to their smartphones. The "Smart" part of a "Smartphone" makes them in fact mini tablet personal computers, and that they don't offer the kind of control only a PC does to their end user, is unforgivable. It's a shame, the world favors convenience over freedom.
- thiht 3y ago
  What if I told you you're not the only user on the internet? Discord crushed IRC in popularity because it offers people what they want. Simple as that.
  - daeros 3y ago
    And? IRC offers me the lack of bloat I prefer, it lacks the features they want, but I specifically want to merely be modules and plugins that you can opt out of if you don't want the overhead of having to bother with them. It also offers me access to the bots that enable me to get out in front and join the BitTorrent swarm early so that I actually build ratio on private bit torrent trackers. The whole problem with discord's approach is that if I disagree with the preferences of these users, I cannot meaningfully opt out. Discord is just one big blob of features and if you want to strip out unwanted ones you can't because it's a complete package.

jhanschoo 3y ago

In terms of community, what do you have to lose by hosting discord before moving to a freer option when an event like this happens? The friction seems to me the same. In terms of logging history, you could use a bot anyway on discord. This is generally not more friction than fully controlling logs in a freer option.

fragmede 3y ago

“Suck it up”? That attitude is why we have Discord and why it’s so popular, and also why IRC is not. People want features like scrollback when they’re not connected without having a set up screen session via SSH. They want to mobile app, It doesn’t even have to be that good of a mobile app. Yeah, I know you can do all of these things with IRC but people just want it all nicely packaged up by a company who has a UX team to make things nice and easy For them. Looking at the success of slack, there’s a lot of money to be had if you don’t try and force people to “suck it up”. There are good salesmen and bad salesmen, and telling customers to “suck it up “ is not a winning move.

daeros 3y ago
Firstly, IRC is not a Product anyone is trying to sell, I am an IRC evangelist, advocating for an old but adequate technology that can be configured to add the functions that people demand. IRC is not a Product, we are not salesmen, we are Enthusiast. This distinction is meaningful enough to merit pointing out. Do you think when I came to IRC, I didn't notice that the UX was actually rather ugly? It was readily apparent to me, I simply felt other things were more important. It wasn't the priority. The same is true of money, being able to take part in the gift economy of the hacker under world is of more value to me than money.
- iimblack 3y ago
  I mean sure but that means nothing to the average user. You have to appeal to your audience, unfortunately, and the audience of mass users has shown time and again that ux is extremely important over anything else.