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This has not been my experience at all. I do see this in the management layers, even with team leads, but the typical IC engineer does NOT spend any significan

This has not been my experience at all. I do see this in the management layers, even with team leads, but the typical IC engineer does NOT spend any significant time talking with stakeholders, support, or users. They do have to work with other devs, but even that is frequently over chat, and not as much in-person, though it depends on the particular people and the company culture. Yes, you really can go into a tech career and avoid talking to people much, much more than other careers. Just stay out of management if you don't like talking to people.

david-gpu 3y ago
The least effective ICs I ever ran into were those who brooded in front of their PC without communicating adequately with others. As a result, they didn't understand the requirements, built stuff that didn't meet the team's needs, and generally wasted a ton of time on stuff that needed to be redone.
tstrimple 3y ago
Are these the engineers who exert no control over their environments and just sit back and bitterly complain while taking no steps to resolve the issues? Those engineers who complain about "stupid management decisions" yet have made no real effort to influence the people and processes which led to those decisions? Sure. You can be a developer and avoid talking to humans as much as possible. You're just not going to be as effective or impactful as someone who does navigate those people problems. The technology is the easy part. How effectively companies navigate human problems makes a huge difference in how effectively they can implement technology solutions and engineers who can help solve those problems are invaluable.
- shiroiushi 3y ago
  Maybe you worked in some small companies or something where ICs can actually talk to customers, but when you're working in a 100,000 person company, that simply isn't something you do. If you go over your managers' head, they tend to get very angry, and that's just within the company, to say nothing about unsolicited contacts with customers from someone in a position that isn't customer-facing.
  - tstrimple 3y ago
    I'm currently working for a company which has over 350k employees. My previous company had over 100k. The company before that had over 220k employees. Literally every single one of them is starved of engineers who give enough fucks to speak up.
    - hayst4ck 3y ago
      No. This is not how reality works. They are not starved of engineers who "give enough fucks to speak up", they are starved of management who are invested and take enough responsibility to solicit direct feedback from the "assembly line" engineers and then make short term concessions on behalf of long term interests in defiance of what shareholders prefer. Here is a quote from (imho) one of the top 5 greatest engineers of the 20th century, if not the number 1 greatest engineering leader: > A major flaw in our system of government, and even in industry, is the latitude allowed to do less than is necessary. Too often officials are willing to accept and adapt to situations they know to be wrong. The tendency is to downplay problems instead of actively trying to correct them. Recognizing this, many subordinates give up, contain their views within themselves, and wait for others to take action. When this happens, the manager is deprived of the experience and ideas of subordinates who generally are more knowledgeable than he in their particular areas. It's also worth reflecting on Pournelle's Law of Bureaucracy: https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html The only result of fighting the incentive structure put in place by management (far too often: punishment for pushed deadlines, reward for cutting corners) as an engineer is mental illness.

david-gpu 3y ago

The least effective ICs I ever ran into were those who brooded in front of their PC without communicating adequately with others. As a result, they didn't understand the requirements, built stuff that didn't meet the team's needs, and generally wasted a ton of time on stuff that needed to be redone.

tstrimple 3y ago

Are these the engineers who exert no control over their environments and just sit back and bitterly complain while taking no steps to resolve the issues? Those engineers who complain about "stupid management decisions" yet have made no real effort to influence the people and processes which led to those decisions? Sure. You can be a developer and avoid talking to humans as much as possible. You're just not going to be as effective or impactful as someone who does navigate those people problems. The technology is the easy part. How effectively companies navigate human problems makes a huge difference in how effectively they can implement technology solutions and engineers who can help solve those problems are invaluable.

shiroiushi 3y ago
Maybe you worked in some small companies or something where ICs can actually talk to customers, but when you're working in a 100,000 person company, that simply isn't something you do. If you go over your managers' head, they tend to get very angry, and that's just within the company, to say nothing about unsolicited contacts with customers from someone in a position that isn't customer-facing.
- tstrimple 3y ago
  I'm currently working for a company which has over 350k employees. My previous company had over 100k. The company before that had over 220k employees. Literally every single one of them is starved of engineers who give enough fucks to speak up.
  - hayst4ck 3y ago
    No. This is not how reality works. They are not starved of engineers who "give enough fucks to speak up", they are starved of management who are invested and take enough responsibility to solicit direct feedback from the "assembly line" engineers and then make short term concessions on behalf of long term interests in defiance of what shareholders prefer. Here is a quote from (imho) one of the top 5 greatest engineers of the 20th century, if not the number 1 greatest engineering leader: > A major flaw in our system of government, and even in industry, is the latitude allowed to do less than is necessary. Too often officials are willing to accept and adapt to situations they know to be wrong. The tendency is to downplay problems instead of actively trying to correct them. Recognizing this, many subordinates give up, contain their views within themselves, and wait for others to take action. When this happens, the manager is deprived of the experience and ideas of subordinates who generally are more knowledgeable than he in their particular areas. It's also worth reflecting on Pournelle's Law of Bureaucracy: https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html The only result of fighting the incentive structure put in place by management (far too often: punishment for pushed deadlines, reward for cutting corners) as an engineer is mental illness.