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> Software engineering is not a low-status position Pay is not status. Software currently pays quite well, but in most companies today a developer is at the ve

by jjav 3y ago

> Software engineering is not a low-status position Pay is not status. Software currently pays quite well, but in most companies today a developer is at the very bottom of the status curve. Developers are no longer allowed any say in what to build or how to build it, they are micromanaged by product managers and program managers and team managers and required to give daily status reports ("agile"). (I say "used to" because in the 90s developers were a high status role. You got to make all decisions and execute on them with great independence. Pay was much lower but respect was much higher.) The other stress factor is that developers get decreasing respect every year they age. This is in contrast with basically every other professional role where experience is highly valued. Nobody wants the rookie heart surgeon, everyone wants the 60 year old who has done it thousands of times. But nobody wants a 60 year old software engineer.

shiroiushi 3y ago
>Developers are no longer allowed any say in what to build or how to build it, they are micromanaged by product managers and program managers and team managers and required to give daily status reports ("agile"). I don't see how this is a bad thing, for a large and complicated product. For a small company where a team of 5 people can do the whole thing, sure, you don't need all this management, though I think some parts of the Agile methodology can be useful just for keeping people in sync. I worked in a small-ish team a while ago using an Agile methodology and it was fine: the program manager basically told us the feedback from the customer, and then it was up to us to decide what features to make to keep the customer happy and how to do it and how to schedule it. The Agile methodology just forced us to have regular meetings, and made it easy for the outside stakeholders to keep tabs on us and attend our meetings when necessary. Having daily habits in your life isn't a bad thing for many people, and that's basically what Agile was, in my experience: a way of having habits. >Pay was much lower but respect was much higher. No, it really wasn't. Maybe within the profession, but not to society at-large. Developers back then had little respect, until they started making lots of money in the dot-com boom, then people starting respecting the profession a bit more. Software development has never gotten the respect that doctors and lawyers get. >Nobody wants the rookie heart surgeon, everyone wants the 60 year old who has done it thousands of times. This might have some truth, but it's a bad view: generally, older surgeons prefer to use older surgical techniques that they learned decades ago, since they weren't trained on the newest techniques. The newer techniques generally are much less invasive and have faster recovery times. It's better to go with younger surgeons who have more modern training, but still some experience (i.e., not fresh out).
mjr00 3y ago
> Pay is not status. Software currently pays quite well, but in most companies today a developer is at the very bottom of the status curve. This is your own perspective, and again, it's extremely warped. If you think developers are at the very bottom of the status curve, go sign up to be your company's janitor, receptionist, HR/"talent acquisition", junior accountant, or any "operations"/"administration" role. Someone's gotta order and restock all the free beer and snacks in your office, you know. And other than the janitor, those positions are all still likely 9-5 salaried positions that pay decently. Go be a retail worker, hotel staff, or waiter/waitress and enjoy being shit on by both your manager and your customers all day. Then come back and talk about how being a software dev is low status.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
UncleMeat 3y ago
You are woefully misinformed if you think that doctors have a significant say in their day to day work. My sister is in medicine. Her entire day, down to each 30 minute block, is prescheduled for her. Often, she is forced to see multiple patients at once to increase revenues. The services that she is allowed to provide are governed by a completely separate insurance company. Strict metrics are tracked about the outcomes of each visit, including things like "how often did you see somebody for 35 minutes because that way you could charge for a full hour but spend less of your time." This is far worse than anything I have ever experienced in software regarding tickets coming down from PMs or tracking of the amount of code committed in a week.
- jjav 3y ago
  > You are woefully misinformed if you think that doctors have a significant say in their day to day work. But then, I did not say that. I said doctors get more respect as they gain experience, which is true.
  - UncleMeat 3y ago
    As do engineers.

by jjav 3y ago

shiroiushi 3y ago

>Developers are no longer allowed any say in what to build or how to build it, they are micromanaged by product managers and program managers and team managers and required to give daily status reports ("agile"). I don't see how this is a bad thing, for a large and complicated product. For a small company where a team of 5 people can do the whole thing, sure, you don't need all this management, though I think some parts of the Agile methodology can be useful just for keeping people in sync. I worked in a small-ish team a while ago using an Agile methodology and it was fine: the program manager basically told us the feedback from the customer, and then it was up to us to decide what features to make to keep the customer happy and how to do it and how to schedule it. The Agile methodology just forced us to have regular meetings, and made it easy for the outside stakeholders to keep tabs on us and attend our meetings when necessary. Having daily habits in your life isn't a bad thing for many people, and that's basically what Agile was, in my experience: a way of having habits. >Pay was much lower but respect was much higher. No, it really wasn't. Maybe within the profession, but not to society at-large. Developers back then had little respect, until they started making lots of money in the dot-com boom, then people starting respecting the profession a bit more. Software development has never gotten the respect that doctors and lawyers get. >Nobody wants the rookie heart surgeon, everyone wants the 60 year old who has done it thousands of times. This might have some truth, but it's a bad view: generally, older surgeons prefer to use older surgical techniques that they learned decades ago, since they weren't trained on the newest techniques. The newer techniques generally are much less invasive and have faster recovery times. It's better to go with younger surgeons who have more modern training, but still some experience (i.e., not fresh out).

mjr00 3y ago

> Pay is not status. Software currently pays quite well, but in most companies today a developer is at the very bottom of the status curve. This is your own perspective, and again, it's extremely warped. If you think developers are at the very bottom of the status curve, go sign up to be your company's janitor, receptionist, HR/"talent acquisition", junior accountant, or any "operations"/"administration" role. Someone's gotta order and restock all the free beer and snacks in your office, you know. And other than the janitor, those positions are all still likely 9-5 salaried positions that pay decently. Go be a retail worker, hotel staff, or waiter/waitress and enjoy being shit on by both your manager and your customers all day. Then come back and talk about how being a software dev is low status.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

UncleMeat 3y ago

You are woefully misinformed if you think that doctors have a significant say in their day to day work. My sister is in medicine. Her entire day, down to each 30 minute block, is prescheduled for her. Often, she is forced to see multiple patients at once to increase revenues. The services that she is allowed to provide are governed by a completely separate insurance company. Strict metrics are tracked about the outcomes of each visit, including things like "how often did you see somebody for 35 minutes because that way you could charge for a full hour but spend less of your time." This is far worse than anything I have ever experienced in software regarding tickets coming down from PMs or tracking of the amount of code committed in a week.

jjav 3y ago
> You are woefully misinformed if you think that doctors have a significant say in their day to day work. But then, I did not say that. I said doctors get more respect as they gain experience, which is true.
- UncleMeat 3y ago
  As do engineers.