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And at the end of the day this is exactly the attitude that prevents people from asking for a day off. It's wrong in medicine and it's wrong here. The attitude

And at the end of the day this is exactly the attitude that prevents people from asking for a day off. It's wrong in medicine and it's wrong here. The attitude we should have is: yes, Mr. Successful Boss Man, you are a better human than me: you are more disciplined, don't have a problem with anxiety while dealing with a lot more stress, make more money and even look better. But these facts do absolutely nothing to change that I am crumbling and need a break. If you are so good at dealing with stress - write the software (or stitch up that patient) yourself, surely it would be easy for you, the superhuman? But we won't do that. Instead we'll pretend we are 10x engineers or genius doctors until we either mess ourselves up, or make a big enough mistake. The realization needed to wake up is: the people pushing us to work harder need us. They actually couldn't have their successful business empire or their big fancy hospital without our work.

rexpop 3y ago
> It's wrong in medicine and it's wrong here. This can be said so many times over regarding so many unproductive comparisons. Two wrongs, I've heard all my life, don't make a right. Nevertheless, people insist on dismissing wrongs that aren't, as it were, up to snuff. Well, we as a society can both walk and chew bubblegum. If the OP isn't in here begging us for scarce resources, then he's wrong to interrupt our exchange of lived experiences. I think stressors in the medical industry should be talked about. That seems important. And when they are, I won't be in the comments whining about software on-call.
- riehwvfbk 3y ago
  Maybe whining about on-call would be OK ;) The insane hours are actually counterproductive, but many people view them as a badge of honor. It's an odd metric to compete on (I can work more hours for the same pay!), and yet the competition is definitely there. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libby_Zion_Law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libby_Zion_Law was enacted only after the daughter of a somewhat famous author died due to an egregious medical error made by severely sleep deprived residents. One has to wonder how many less famous people and their relatives have died prior to that, and what exactly is the benefit of having exhausted doctors running the show. And yet after the law was enacted many hospitals figured out workarounds to keep residents working insane hours (usually by requiring paperwork to be done after hours, unofficially), and many supported the insanity as a necessary rite of passage.
Zenzero 3y ago
You should always be advocating for better hours and more of the rewards from your work. I support that. What makes me take it less seriously is framing it as a crisis in mental health. As much as people don't like comparisons the marketplace for our labor is inherently comparative, and people will optimize for the most money with the least hours/stress. I get that I'm providing anecdata but like I've said in previous comments, the stuff that software engineers I know complain about is from a much more privileged position than other occupations. Burnout is real, but if your version of burnout is someone else's idea of a mildly challenging day (which is my experience) it doesn't have the impact you want it to have. You may not realize it but there are roles in medicine where the work itself is inherently stressful regardless of how many concessions your employer provides. If your goal is to argue that software engineers deserve higher compensation and better hours and more autonomy given the value they provide, it would garner more sympathy from someone like me. Proclaiming your suffering is at a boiling point feels like a lack of awareness.
- jabradoodle 3y ago
  Excluding this one sentence in the article > Software Engineers and Tech co-founders, like us, are more prone to hitting the lows. I don't see where anyone was comparing software engineering/engineers to another profession. I certainly don't see where it was proclaimed a crisis. I don't think it's productive to tell people others have it worse when they are promoting a discussion around mental health. I also don't think being well paid and having what appear to be great working conditions preclude you from having mental health issues.
  - yetihehe 3y ago
    I remember taltking to some of my friends about who has it better. When I ask "would you like to work like me?" typical answer is "Sitting 8h staring at a screen? I couldn't do that!". When I was summer-working at home construction 8-19, I was tired after a day of work, but pretty happy. Now when I'm sitting so long programming, I have headache and feel tired constantly. There is something about moving all day which makes us a little happier than sitting or lying.

rexpop 3y ago

> It's wrong in medicine and it's wrong here. This can be said so many times over regarding so many unproductive comparisons. Two wrongs, I've heard all my life, don't make a right. Nevertheless, people insist on dismissing wrongs that aren't, as it were, up to snuff. Well, we as a society can both walk and chew bubblegum. If the OP isn't in here begging us for scarce resources, then he's wrong to interrupt our exchange of lived experiences. I think stressors in the medical industry should be talked about. That seems important. And when they are, I won't be in the comments whining about software on-call.

riehwvfbk 3y ago
Maybe whining about on-call would be OK ;) The insane hours are actually counterproductive, but many people view them as a badge of honor. It's an odd metric to compete on (I can work more hours for the same pay!), and yet the competition is definitely there. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libby_Zion_Law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libby_Zion_Law was enacted only after the daughter of a somewhat famous author died due to an egregious medical error made by severely sleep deprived residents. One has to wonder how many less famous people and their relatives have died prior to that, and what exactly is the benefit of having exhausted doctors running the show. And yet after the law was enacted many hospitals figured out workarounds to keep residents working insane hours (usually by requiring paperwork to be done after hours, unofficially), and many supported the insanity as a necessary rite of passage.

Zenzero 3y ago

You should always be advocating for better hours and more of the rewards from your work. I support that. What makes me take it less seriously is framing it as a crisis in mental health. As much as people don't like comparisons the marketplace for our labor is inherently comparative, and people will optimize for the most money with the least hours/stress. I get that I'm providing anecdata but like I've said in previous comments, the stuff that software engineers I know complain about is from a much more privileged position than other occupations. Burnout is real, but if your version of burnout is someone else's idea of a mildly challenging day (which is my experience) it doesn't have the impact you want it to have. You may not realize it but there are roles in medicine where the work itself is inherently stressful regardless of how many concessions your employer provides. If your goal is to argue that software engineers deserve higher compensation and better hours and more autonomy given the value they provide, it would garner more sympathy from someone like me. Proclaiming your suffering is at a boiling point feels like a lack of awareness.

jabradoodle 3y ago
Excluding this one sentence in the article > Software Engineers and Tech co-founders, like us, are more prone to hitting the lows. I don't see where anyone was comparing software engineering/engineers to another profession. I certainly don't see where it was proclaimed a crisis. I don't think it's productive to tell people others have it worse when they are promoting a discussion around mental health. I also don't think being well paid and having what appear to be great working conditions preclude you from having mental health issues.
- yetihehe 3y ago
  I remember taltking to some of my friends about who has it better. When I ask "would you like to work like me?" typical answer is "Sitting 8h staring at a screen? I couldn't do that!". When I was summer-working at home construction 8-19, I was tired after a day of work, but pretty happy. Now when I'm sitting so long programming, I have headache and feel tired constantly. There is something about moving all day which makes us a little happier than sitting or lying.