4 ms·

Most of what you hear about that are exaggerations and rumors, mostly based on this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o-n6vZvqjQ https://www.youtube.com/wa

by tehnub 3y ago

Most of what you hear about that are exaggerations and rumors, mostly based on this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o-n6vZvqjQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o-n6vZvqjQ. People cite lines like "don't sympathize with Shelly" to jump to the conclusion that Kubrick "ordered the cast and crew to alienate her". Or they cite making her do 60 or however many takes, as if that constitutes abuse. I wonder if the abuse allegations are compounded by Wendy Torrance being so vulnerable and scared in the movie influencing perception of the actress, and also some kind of collective guilt for the initial uninterested to negative critical reaction to her performance.

hinkley 3y ago
Stephen King referred to the movie as “misogynistic”. And it was apparently 127 takes.
- subsubzero 3y ago
  Highly recommend watching "room 237" a documentary about the shining, some of it veers into speculation but one interesting take was that Kubrick in the film specifically lets Stephen King know that this is his vehicle(the movie) and is quite subtle about the message.
- MeImCounting 3y ago
  Thats a lot for sure but I really dont think the number of takes shows abuse or not. I dont have an opinion on any alleged abuse of Duvall either way, because it just doesnt matter enough for me to form an informed opinion. Regardless the number of takes and the opinion of the author certainly dont mean much.
- tehnub 3y ago
  He was probably talking about the story. In the book, Wendy is supposed to be strong, not one to be pushed around. In the movie, it's the total opposite.
- WillPostForFood 3y ago
  The quotation from a BBC interview is, “Shelley Duvall as Wendy is really one of the most misogynistic characters ever put on film, she’s basically just there to scream and be stupid and that’s not the woman that I wrote about.” https://www.bbc.com/news/av/entertainment-arts-24151957 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/entertainment-arts-24151957
  - hax0ron3 3y ago
    I think King was wrong. Wendy outwits Jack and saves her son. Yeah she screams a lot but that seems pretty realistic to me. When push comes to shove and she can no longer deny what is happening, she shows a lot of strength and intelligence. The idea that she is "just there to scream and be stupid" just does not match up with what the movie actually shows.
    - kouru225 3y ago
      Yea I disagree with King here. He wants Wendy to be strong but IMO it’s such a better story with her as this hopeless character who’s dealing with crap way over his head. It makes the story into a classic Greek tragedy.
- canjobear 3y ago
  Stephen King has always been bitter that Kubrick made a movie that was better than his book, while inverting the moral of the book.
  - slickdork 3y ago
    King's come around by saying basically it is a good movie but a bad adaption, and he's not wrong. They're two different stories with different characters.
  - kouru225 3y ago
    What would you say is the moral of the book?
CharlesW 3y ago
> Most of what you hear about that are exaggerations and rumors… Are they? Kubrick is known for being difficult and for his shallow portrayal of women. And whether it was due to misogyny or his personal view of Duvall, even Kubrick's daughter called her father "a different director" when referring to how he singled her out. > People cite lines like "don't sympathize with Shelly" to jump to the conclusion that Kubrick "ordered the cast and crew to alienate her". Except he literally did that in order to alienate her and extract a slightly more authentic performance, which is the same reason he spent three weeks on the baseball bat scene.
- tehnub 3y ago
  >Kubrick is known for being difficult and for his shallow portrayal of women He may or may not be known for that, but is it really true? Part of the point of my comment is to dispel common misperceptions. Is Alice in Eyes Wide Shut shallow? Or the women in Barry Lyndon, particularly his mother? >Except he literally did that in order to alienate her [...] Or he did it as a joke. Maybe he thinks it's funny to say that to Duvall as she's saying her hair is falling out, because he has a big bald spot. Hey, isn't Kubrick also known for his dark humor?
- hax0ron3 3y ago
  I don't know what happened between Kubrick and Duvall, but it is clear to me that Kubrick's art looks at humanity in general in a cynical and one might even say misanthropic way. Think about his male characters. His films are full of men who are neurotic losers, corporate conformists, cynical opportunists, or violent lunatics. Not that he never presents conventional male heroes, but they are rare in his work as a whole. He certainly seems to be more interested in male characters than in female characters on average, judging by who gets more screen time. But he is not especially kind to the male gender. If he was a misogynist, perhaps we might just as justly call him a misandrist. He very well might actually have been more of a misogynist than a misandrist, but if he was I'm not sure that it really shows through in his movies.
cm2187 3y ago
Plus trying to extract a genuine reaction from your actors by surprising or manipulating them is a common occurence. A few examples from the top of my head: the alien bursting out of the chest in the first alien, jodie foster's nervousness confronting Hopkins as Hannibal the first time, Leone releasing a dog to spook Eli Wallach in the cemetery scene in the good bad ugly, etc.
kranke155 3y ago
What? Even Jack Nicholson has implied in interviews that Kubrick was really harsh with her.

by tehnub 3y ago

hinkley 3y ago

Stephen King referred to the movie as “misogynistic”. And it was apparently 127 takes.

subsubzero 3y ago
Highly recommend watching "room 237" a documentary about the shining, some of it veers into speculation but one interesting take was that Kubrick in the film specifically lets Stephen King know that this is his vehicle(the movie) and is quite subtle about the message.
MeImCounting 3y ago
Thats a lot for sure but I really dont think the number of takes shows abuse or not. I dont have an opinion on any alleged abuse of Duvall either way, because it just doesnt matter enough for me to form an informed opinion. Regardless the number of takes and the opinion of the author certainly dont mean much.
tehnub 3y ago
He was probably talking about the story. In the book, Wendy is supposed to be strong, not one to be pushed around. In the movie, it's the total opposite.
WillPostForFood 3y ago
The quotation from a BBC interview is, “Shelley Duvall as Wendy is really one of the most misogynistic characters ever put on film, she’s basically just there to scream and be stupid and that’s not the woman that I wrote about.” https://www.bbc.com/news/av/entertainment-arts-24151957 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/entertainment-arts-24151957
- hax0ron3 3y ago
  I think King was wrong. Wendy outwits Jack and saves her son. Yeah she screams a lot but that seems pretty realistic to me. When push comes to shove and she can no longer deny what is happening, she shows a lot of strength and intelligence. The idea that she is "just there to scream and be stupid" just does not match up with what the movie actually shows.
  - kouru225 3y ago
    Yea I disagree with King here. He wants Wendy to be strong but IMO it’s such a better story with her as this hopeless character who’s dealing with crap way over his head. It makes the story into a classic Greek tragedy.
canjobear 3y ago
Stephen King has always been bitter that Kubrick made a movie that was better than his book, while inverting the moral of the book.
- slickdork 3y ago
  King's come around by saying basically it is a good movie but a bad adaption, and he's not wrong. They're two different stories with different characters.
- kouru225 3y ago
  What would you say is the moral of the book?

CharlesW 3y ago

> Most of what you hear about that are exaggerations and rumors… Are they? Kubrick is known for being difficult and for his shallow portrayal of women. And whether it was due to misogyny or his personal view of Duvall, even Kubrick's daughter called her father "a different director" when referring to how he singled her out. > People cite lines like "don't sympathize with Shelly" to jump to the conclusion that Kubrick "ordered the cast and crew to alienate her". Except he literally did that in order to alienate her and extract a slightly more authentic performance, which is the same reason he spent three weeks on the baseball bat scene.

tehnub 3y ago
>Kubrick is known for being difficult and for his shallow portrayal of women He may or may not be known for that, but is it really true? Part of the point of my comment is to dispel common misperceptions. Is Alice in Eyes Wide Shut shallow? Or the women in Barry Lyndon, particularly his mother? >Except he literally did that in order to alienate her [...] Or he did it as a joke. Maybe he thinks it's funny to say that to Duvall as she's saying her hair is falling out, because he has a big bald spot. Hey, isn't Kubrick also known for his dark humor?
hax0ron3 3y ago
I don't know what happened between Kubrick and Duvall, but it is clear to me that Kubrick's art looks at humanity in general in a cynical and one might even say misanthropic way. Think about his male characters. His films are full of men who are neurotic losers, corporate conformists, cynical opportunists, or violent lunatics. Not that he never presents conventional male heroes, but they are rare in his work as a whole. He certainly seems to be more interested in male characters than in female characters on average, judging by who gets more screen time. But he is not especially kind to the male gender. If he was a misogynist, perhaps we might just as justly call him a misandrist. He very well might actually have been more of a misogynist than a misandrist, but if he was I'm not sure that it really shows through in his movies.

cm2187 3y ago

Plus trying to extract a genuine reaction from your actors by surprising or manipulating them is a common occurence. A few examples from the top of my head: the alien bursting out of the chest in the first alien, jodie foster's nervousness confronting Hopkins as Hannibal the first time, Leone releasing a dog to spook Eli Wallach in the cemetery scene in the good bad ugly, etc.

kranke155 3y ago

What? Even Jack Nicholson has implied in interviews that Kubrick was really harsh with her.