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No one remarks how trite and formulaic the frescoes' compositions are. They are painted as if from soap-opera re-enactments performed by actors bored to tears.

No one remarks how trite and formulaic the frescoes' compositions are. They are painted as if from soap-opera re-enactments performed by actors bored to tears. Evidently whoever commissioned the frescoes couldn't tell, cared less, or could do nothing about it. That who paid for them was Aulus Rustius Verus, a local politician, tracks. The mosaic floor of 3 million tiles with no more decoration than a double black line around the perimeter tracks, too; probably rugs covered most of it. These are lavish trappings of a slave-keeping society. The slaves could be compelled to paint and lay mosaic tiles, but not to care. They were anyway able to ensure viewers would know. Moderns working in advertising will understand.

hammock 2y ago
>No one remarks how trite and formulaic the frescoes' compositions are When I saw the faces in the hero image this was my first reaction as well. Hummel figurines of ancient Rome
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  > "In the shimmering light, the paintings would have almost come to life," They must have been painted by the famous roman "pictor lucis": Uiliemus Thomas Quinquaed?
skrbjc 2y ago
Seems unlikely the slaves would be doing things like painting frescoes and laying mosaic floors. That would more likely be from skilled craftsmen. My impression was that the slaves were probably used to run the bakery.
- hammock 2y ago
  St. Kinga Chapel in the Weilizcka salt mine, complete with relief carving of the Last Supper, salt crystal chandeliers, carved statues and altars was entirely made by trade miners, not skilled scuptors. If you spend enough time in a mine you can get good at that stuff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wieliczka_Salt_Mine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wieliczka_Salt_Mine
  - lproven 2y ago
    Been there twice. Absolutely astounding place... and the bit that's open to the public is I believe about 2% of the mine.
- angiosperm 2y ago
  Slaves did anything in Roman society. Skilled workers from conquered places were enslaved. Slaves apprenticed under them. Slaves even ran all the government offices, and some got rich from bribes, buying their freedom, and eventually, some, their childrens'.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - vondur 2y ago
    That is correct. Greek slaves were tutors to some of the most powerful people in the Roman government. Polybius was kept as a hostage in Rome for 17 years and was a close associate of Scipio Aemilianus, who sacked Carthage at the end of the Third Punic War.
- Almondsetat 2y ago
  Slaves taught geometry and philosophy to emperors...
pugworthy 2y ago
There must have been professional mural and mosaic designers. I wonder if there is any duplication of designs in the town - like the artist had a 'liber artis' (clip art book) the customer could choose from?
- angiosperm 2y ago
  They probably traveled from city to city. They certainly carried clip art catalogs, and had painted each scene many times over. It wasn't art, it was decoration.
natroniks 2y ago
I think Ancient art - visual and otherwise - was steeped in formulaic motifs. It's hard to judge the "passion" of the artist's hand with such low quality images, not to mention the damage wrought over thousands of years. I think it's worthwhile to be careful not to judge ancient art with a modern eye. They had different values. It's quite possible if not likely that frescoes were viewed as temporary, to be plaster-painted over every so often. We can see multiple layers of painted plaster in other parts of Pompeii, so it's not unlikely private homes would do the same. If then they viewed this art as fleeting, why should they pay for the best details when the overall effect is more important? Anyone who walked into this hall would have been familiar with the Trojan cycle. So as long as the characters were recognizable - hence the name labels - that was sufficient. I personally find these bright, full-bodied figures against a stark black background reminiscent of the chiaroscuro effect mastered by Caravaggio some 1500 years later using oil
- duped 2y ago
  I'm not an artist or art historian but my understanding is that fresco (the technique) has no upsides other than longevity. It's time consuming, if the artist makes a mistake they need to start over, and has to be meticulously planned. That's why even the great masters of the Renaissance painted so few, and they tended to be large endeavors. It took a lot of time and planning to do one, even at a small scale. Like if a Roman home owner decided they didn't like the fresco on their wall, it would take at least a year to paint a new one.
- beezlebroxxxxxx 2y ago
  > I think Ancient art - visual and otherwise - was steeped in formulaic motifs. A good example is ancient Egyptian art, which remained remarkably consistent across multiple empires, kingdoms, and dynasties, stretching some 3 millennia and change, a time range and consistency that is simply hard for us to fathom.
  - empath-nirvana 2y ago
    For statuary in particular, it's important to note that Egyptians, and Greeks to a lesser extent, believed that statues of gods were _physically inhabited by those gods_ and could be used to communicate with them, so it was pretty important not to mess with depictions. For other common tropes, like Medusa, they were used as wards against evil and were basically magical spells or talismans.
zer00eyz 2y ago
Wow. You just jammed a very modern perspective on something that isnt that at all. This is a time where there is no "reproduction" where all art of this sort is local. If we go into the mayor of your city's house, strip out all the reproduction what is going to be left? Is he going to be able to put a picaso on every wall if he wants them enriched? "Soap opera like" ... Well let's think about this, any one with enough skill is gonna go to Rome, leaving what behind, the B team, the after school special level actors. This is what the B team does with art. It's very good for where and what it is. The rant about slavery is very contemporary. The narrative that this was created by slaves cause you deemed it lifeless and they were "forced" to do it is... disconnected from history, and art.
- empath-nirvana 2y ago
  Pompeii was a beach resort. You don't go to the Jersey Shore expecting high art.
  - asveikau 2y ago
    Beach resort can mean jersey shore (of which there is both upscale and down market today), could also mean Martha's vineyard. I think Pompeians were wealthy from what I recall reading.
- PeterisP 2y ago
  These are the luxury villas of the super-rich Romans, in the best-resort-close-to-Rome where they'd live while they didn't need to be in Rome for political reasons. They definitely could afford the "A team".
- angiosperm 2y ago
  The fresco painters probably cycled through Rome to pick up current fashions, then circulated through outlying towns to meet demand for capital styles. A top politician could easily have afforded the best painters, if he cared. The "narrative that this was created by slaves" is just a fact of history. If you don't like how history was, you may direct your attention elsewhere. Ranting about somebody mentioning facts of history you prefer to avoid thinking about is disconnected from life.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 2y ago
> No one remarks how trite and formulaic the frescoes' compositions are. I don't know. Cassandra's expression looks remarkably similar to a woman who has received an unsolicited dick pic on Tinder.
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  3 phones, 3 beeps; their owners glance at them briefly, and: Leda: Who's sending me badly cropped Donald Duck? Europa: That's nothing, I got Rocky Mountain Oysters. Danaë: Get out, losers! I got champagne...
Ekaros 2y ago
I'm on other hand surprised just how decent they are considering they are form nearly 2000 years ago. Ofc, they are no Dutch Masters, but still not too bad. There are worse artists now...
- angiosperm 2y ago
  Civilization as we understand it was already thousands of years old, then, and actually expressive art from the period is easy to find. These frescoes were painted at great expense on behalf of an elite figure. He could afford to have expressive art if he cared enough to demand it, and was perceptive enough to recognize whether he had it. Evidently he didn't, or wasn't.

hammock 2y ago

>No one remarks how trite and formulaic the frescoes' compositions are When I saw the faces in the hero image this was my first reaction as well. Hummel figurines of ancient Rome

082349872349872 2y ago
> "In the shimmering light, the paintings would have almost come to life," They must have been painted by the famous roman "pictor lucis": Uiliemus Thomas Quinquaed?

skrbjc 2y ago

Seems unlikely the slaves would be doing things like painting frescoes and laying mosaic floors. That would more likely be from skilled craftsmen. My impression was that the slaves were probably used to run the bakery.

hammock 2y ago
St. Kinga Chapel in the Weilizcka salt mine, complete with relief carving of the Last Supper, salt crystal chandeliers, carved statues and altars was entirely made by trade miners, not skilled scuptors. If you spend enough time in a mine you can get good at that stuff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wieliczka_Salt_Mine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wieliczka_Salt_Mine
- lproven 2y ago
  Been there twice. Absolutely astounding place... and the bit that's open to the public is I believe about 2% of the mine.
angiosperm 2y ago
Slaves did anything in Roman society. Skilled workers from conquered places were enslaved. Slaves apprenticed under them. Slaves even ran all the government offices, and some got rich from bribes, buying their freedom, and eventually, some, their childrens'.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- vondur 2y ago
  That is correct. Greek slaves were tutors to some of the most powerful people in the Roman government. Polybius was kept as a hostage in Rome for 17 years and was a close associate of Scipio Aemilianus, who sacked Carthage at the end of the Third Punic War.
Almondsetat 2y ago
Slaves taught geometry and philosophy to emperors...

pugworthy 2y ago

There must have been professional mural and mosaic designers. I wonder if there is any duplication of designs in the town - like the artist had a 'liber artis' (clip art book) the customer could choose from?

angiosperm 2y ago
They probably traveled from city to city. They certainly carried clip art catalogs, and had painted each scene many times over. It wasn't art, it was decoration.

natroniks 2y ago

I think Ancient art - visual and otherwise - was steeped in formulaic motifs. It's hard to judge the "passion" of the artist's hand with such low quality images, not to mention the damage wrought over thousands of years. I think it's worthwhile to be careful not to judge ancient art with a modern eye. They had different values. It's quite possible if not likely that frescoes were viewed as temporary, to be plaster-painted over every so often. We can see multiple layers of painted plaster in other parts of Pompeii, so it's not unlikely private homes would do the same. If then they viewed this art as fleeting, why should they pay for the best details when the overall effect is more important? Anyone who walked into this hall would have been familiar with the Trojan cycle. So as long as the characters were recognizable - hence the name labels - that was sufficient. I personally find these bright, full-bodied figures against a stark black background reminiscent of the chiaroscuro effect mastered by Caravaggio some 1500 years later using oil

duped 2y ago
I'm not an artist or art historian but my understanding is that fresco (the technique) has no upsides other than longevity. It's time consuming, if the artist makes a mistake they need to start over, and has to be meticulously planned. That's why even the great masters of the Renaissance painted so few, and they tended to be large endeavors. It took a lot of time and planning to do one, even at a small scale. Like if a Roman home owner decided they didn't like the fresco on their wall, it would take at least a year to paint a new one.
beezlebroxxxxxx 2y ago
> I think Ancient art - visual and otherwise - was steeped in formulaic motifs. A good example is ancient Egyptian art, which remained remarkably consistent across multiple empires, kingdoms, and dynasties, stretching some 3 millennia and change, a time range and consistency that is simply hard for us to fathom.
- empath-nirvana 2y ago
  For statuary in particular, it's important to note that Egyptians, and Greeks to a lesser extent, believed that statues of gods were _physically inhabited by those gods_ and could be used to communicate with them, so it was pretty important not to mess with depictions. For other common tropes, like Medusa, they were used as wards against evil and were basically magical spells or talismans.

zer00eyz 2y ago

Wow. You just jammed a very modern perspective on something that isnt that at all. This is a time where there is no "reproduction" where all art of this sort is local. If we go into the mayor of your city's house, strip out all the reproduction what is going to be left? Is he going to be able to put a picaso on every wall if he wants them enriched? "Soap opera like" ... Well let's think about this, any one with enough skill is gonna go to Rome, leaving what behind, the B team, the after school special level actors. This is what the B team does with art. It's very good for where and what it is. The rant about slavery is very contemporary. The narrative that this was created by slaves cause you deemed it lifeless and they were "forced" to do it is... disconnected from history, and art.

empath-nirvana 2y ago
Pompeii was a beach resort. You don't go to the Jersey Shore expecting high art.
- asveikau 2y ago
  Beach resort can mean jersey shore (of which there is both upscale and down market today), could also mean Martha's vineyard. I think Pompeians were wealthy from what I recall reading.
PeterisP 2y ago
These are the luxury villas of the super-rich Romans, in the best-resort-close-to-Rome where they'd live while they didn't need to be in Rome for political reasons. They definitely could afford the "A team".
angiosperm 2y ago
The fresco painters probably cycled through Rome to pick up current fashions, then circulated through outlying towns to meet demand for capital styles. A top politician could easily have afforded the best painters, if he cared. The "narrative that this was created by slaves" is just a fact of history. If you don't like how history was, you may direct your attention elsewhere. Ranting about somebody mentioning facts of history you prefer to avoid thinking about is disconnected from life.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 2y ago

> No one remarks how trite and formulaic the frescoes' compositions are. I don't know. Cassandra's expression looks remarkably similar to a woman who has received an unsolicited dick pic on Tinder.

082349872349872 2y ago
3 phones, 3 beeps; their owners glance at them briefly, and: Leda: Who's sending me badly cropped Donald Duck? Europa: That's nothing, I got Rocky Mountain Oysters. Danaë: Get out, losers! I got champagne...

Ekaros 2y ago

I'm on other hand surprised just how decent they are considering they are form nearly 2000 years ago. Ofc, they are no Dutch Masters, but still not too bad. There are worse artists now...

angiosperm 2y ago
Civilization as we understand it was already thousands of years old, then, and actually expressive art from the period is easy to find. These frescoes were painted at great expense on behalf of an elite figure. He could afford to have expressive art if he cared enough to demand it, and was perceptive enough to recognize whether he had it. Evidently he didn't, or wasn't.