5 ms·

Just out of curiosity why would you have imessage turned off?

w0m 2y ago
Unless things have changed since I last looked, if those you talk to aren't also on iMessage, it feels like a net negative to use as you get inconsistent/negative behavior between contacts. From that end, it becomes sort of a moral issue with the clearly arbitrarily locked gates and poor experiences. So you disable and use a non-malicious and cross platform solution.
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  Apple is malicious, but Facebook is totally okay?
  - dqv 2y ago
    > Apple is malicious, but Facebook is totally okay? This is such a bizarre comment to make, because OP never suggested that Facebook is "totally okay". You replied to them after their edit window passed, so they didn't say that and then edit it out either.
  - w0m 2y ago
    Apple explicitly and actively making what should be a 'standard' text message experience worse on non-apple devices is malicious. FB Messenger is simply an alternative. I haven't paid attention to it, but maybe the Threads fediverse integration will piss me off just as much.
sneak 2y ago
iMessage histories are backed up in the nightly automatic non-e2ee iCloud Backup, effectively backdooring iMessage’s “end to end encryption” by escrowing the plaintext to a not-endpoint. Apple can read approximately everyone’s iMessages out of their backups. It’s not private or secure, and claiming it is end to end encrypted is misleading almost to the point of being actually false.
- ZekeSulastin 2y ago
  Albeit recent and optional, isn’t that a hole specifically fixed by the Advanced Data Protection option[0]? Granted, it doesn’t do much if your recipients don’t also have it enabled. 0: https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651 https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651
- jackson1442 2y ago
  This is the same behavior as SMS if you have enabled “Messages backup.” If backup is not enabled you will not have a copy of iMessages stored in iCloud (though all compatible and configured devices will still receive messages). This can be changed by opting in to the e2ee iCloud data service “Advanced Data Protection.”
  - sneak 2y ago
    Nope. Even opting into ADP, your iMessage conversations will still be backed up to Apple without e2ee - just from the non-ADP phones of all the people you iMessage with instead of your own phone. iMessages are backed up in duplicate - once on the sender and once on the receiver. You can only control e2ee for half of it, so your conversations are still under surveillance unless everyone you message with has also turned on ADP.
    - Cyphase 2y ago
      Is there any E2EE messaging service, or network protocol of any sort, that doesn't suffer from this? If an endpoint is compromised in whatever way, it doesn't matter how encrypted the data is in transit.
      - sneak 2y ago
        Signal doesn’t have this problem. By your terminology, all iOS devices are “compromised” by default from having non-e2ee iCloud Backup enabled by default. Signal chats on iOS are stored in a storage class that cannot be backed up or exported from the device.
vinay_ys 2y ago
iMessage has been one of the most successful delivery vector for these spyware attacks. So, if you think you are a likely target of a state sponsored attack, best thing you can do on an Apple device is to turn on lockdown mode, turn off iCloud and iMessage, stop using keychain, use only a yubikey for all authentication, and restrict yourself to a limited number of essential apps on your primary device and use a dedicated burner device for all your throwaway browsing and communications, and erase/reset that device after every session. And still, assume everything you say and do online is fully compromised, because there are always system vulnerabilities that haven't been made known yet ('zero-day' attacks) and are being used to compromise highly targeted individuals. In the end, it is a very convoluted cat and mouse game.
- draugadrotten 2y ago
  > assume everything you say and do online is fully compromised This is the way.
- nprateem 2y ago
  So it's not just me :-D
1oooqooq 2y ago
*tinfoil hat on imessage and rcs (and arguably mms, although that started as cost cutting) are backdoors for the legal protections on mining telephony provider metadata for marketing. with those two "opt in" (lol) techs, all safeguards are off.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
__jonas 2y ago
I'm in Europe, I haven't encountered anyone in my life who has used iMessage (everyone uses WhatsApp, now also Telegram/Signal), so I don't really have a use for it, when I wanted to try the weird AR emoji / heartbeat reaction message things with my partner we noticed we both had iMessage turned off, I guess it's like a setting that maybe we skipped during the phone setup? Not sure if it's on by default for some people.
- plufz 2y ago
  Where in Europe is that? Surprising to me (Swedish).
  - __jonas 2y ago
    I've lived in Germany and the UK, I guess I wrongly assumed it was like this everywhere in Europe. Might also be related to the social environment. I am noticing, the social circle I am currently in has now largely moved to Telegram, whereas in other places it's 100% WhatsApp.
    - zarzavat 2y ago
      Telegram itself seems like one big honeypot, if people are moving from WhatsApp to Telegram that’s quite a retrograde step.
    - sneak 2y ago
      Telegram is not end to end encrypted. The service provider can read the messages.
bdd8f1df777b 2y ago
Several CVEs in the past related to iMessage. And it has surprisingly high privilege. Since I seldom need it, turning it off is better for my security.

w0m 2y ago

Unless things have changed since I last looked, if those you talk to aren't also on iMessage, it feels like a net negative to use as you get inconsistent/negative behavior between contacts. From that end, it becomes sort of a moral issue with the clearly arbitrarily locked gates and poor experiences. So you disable and use a non-malicious and cross platform solution.

rootusrootus 2y ago
Apple is malicious, but Facebook is totally okay?
- dqv 2y ago
  > Apple is malicious, but Facebook is totally okay? This is such a bizarre comment to make, because OP never suggested that Facebook is "totally okay". You replied to them after their edit window passed, so they didn't say that and then edit it out either.
- w0m 2y ago
  Apple explicitly and actively making what should be a 'standard' text message experience worse on non-apple devices is malicious. FB Messenger is simply an alternative. I haven't paid attention to it, but maybe the Threads fediverse integration will piss me off just as much.

sneak 2y ago

iMessage histories are backed up in the nightly automatic non-e2ee iCloud Backup, effectively backdooring iMessage’s “end to end encryption” by escrowing the plaintext to a not-endpoint. Apple can read approximately everyone’s iMessages out of their backups. It’s not private or secure, and claiming it is end to end encrypted is misleading almost to the point of being actually false.

ZekeSulastin 2y ago
Albeit recent and optional, isn’t that a hole specifically fixed by the Advanced Data Protection option[0]? Granted, it doesn’t do much if your recipients don’t also have it enabled. 0: https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651 https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651
jackson1442 2y ago
This is the same behavior as SMS if you have enabled “Messages backup.” If backup is not enabled you will not have a copy of iMessages stored in iCloud (though all compatible and configured devices will still receive messages). This can be changed by opting in to the e2ee iCloud data service “Advanced Data Protection.”
- sneak 2y ago
  Nope. Even opting into ADP, your iMessage conversations will still be backed up to Apple without e2ee - just from the non-ADP phones of all the people you iMessage with instead of your own phone. iMessages are backed up in duplicate - once on the sender and once on the receiver. You can only control e2ee for half of it, so your conversations are still under surveillance unless everyone you message with has also turned on ADP.
  - Cyphase 2y ago
    Is there any E2EE messaging service, or network protocol of any sort, that doesn't suffer from this? If an endpoint is compromised in whatever way, it doesn't matter how encrypted the data is in transit.
    - sneak 2y ago
      Signal doesn’t have this problem. By your terminology, all iOS devices are “compromised” by default from having non-e2ee iCloud Backup enabled by default. Signal chats on iOS are stored in a storage class that cannot be backed up or exported from the device.

vinay_ys 2y ago

iMessage has been one of the most successful delivery vector for these spyware attacks. So, if you think you are a likely target of a state sponsored attack, best thing you can do on an Apple device is to turn on lockdown mode, turn off iCloud and iMessage, stop using keychain, use only a yubikey for all authentication, and restrict yourself to a limited number of essential apps on your primary device and use a dedicated burner device for all your throwaway browsing and communications, and erase/reset that device after every session. And still, assume everything you say and do online is fully compromised, because there are always system vulnerabilities that haven't been made known yet ('zero-day' attacks) and are being used to compromise highly targeted individuals. In the end, it is a very convoluted cat and mouse game.

draugadrotten 2y ago
> assume everything you say and do online is fully compromised This is the way.
nprateem 2y ago
So it's not just me :-D

1oooqooq 2y ago

*tinfoil hat on imessage and rcs (and arguably mms, although that started as cost cutting) are backdoors for the legal protections on mining telephony provider metadata for marketing. with those two "opt in" (lol) techs, all safeguards are off.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

__jonas 2y ago

I'm in Europe, I haven't encountered anyone in my life who has used iMessage (everyone uses WhatsApp, now also Telegram/Signal), so I don't really have a use for it, when I wanted to try the weird AR emoji / heartbeat reaction message things with my partner we noticed we both had iMessage turned off, I guess it's like a setting that maybe we skipped during the phone setup? Not sure if it's on by default for some people.

plufz 2y ago
Where in Europe is that? Surprising to me (Swedish).
- __jonas 2y ago
  I've lived in Germany and the UK, I guess I wrongly assumed it was like this everywhere in Europe. Might also be related to the social environment. I am noticing, the social circle I am currently in has now largely moved to Telegram, whereas in other places it's 100% WhatsApp.
  - zarzavat 2y ago
    Telegram itself seems like one big honeypot, if people are moving from WhatsApp to Telegram that’s quite a retrograde step.
  - sneak 2y ago
    Telegram is not end to end encrypted. The service provider can read the messages.

bdd8f1df777b 2y ago

Several CVEs in the past related to iMessage. And it has surprisingly high privilege. Since I seldom need it, turning it off is better for my security.