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> Apple needs to work with authoritarian governments, or nobody is going to build our iPhones. Not only is this objectively true, I also have an iPhone. It's n

> Apple needs to work with authoritarian governments, or nobody is going to build our iPhones. Not only is this objectively true, I also have an iPhone. It's not news to me but it still makes me do a double take every time. Maybe I should try oscillating to Linux and FairPhone again...

tombert 3y ago
I think as of right now, it's nearly impossible to buy a guilt-free computer of any kind. It's a spectrum, obviously, but I think if you were to audit every component of any computer you buy from basically any company, you'd eventually get something kind of depressing. A relative of mine in the defense industry has told me that, generally speaking, the DoD requires that none of the components in missiles have parts manufactured by potential adversaries, which makes enough sense but is also extremely difficult now.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  When I have to point to something when I say I doubt manufacturing will ever come back to the west, I point to the fact we can't manufacture the simplest of things ourselves anymore. Thanks Delta Airlines, whose metal nametags are literally just cut sheets of aluminum with some paint on them and are still Made in China. Someone seriously wants to tell me we can manufacture bleeding edge tech when we can't even cut and paint our own fucking sheet metal?
  - reaperducer 3y ago
    Very often it's not about "can't," and more about "cheaper." There's plenty of places to get metal nametags made in the U.S.A. But Delta chose to go the cheapest route to save a few pennies.
  - kwhitefoot 3y ago
    That's just weird. the US is definitely a lower cost country than Norway yet my youngest son works for a company here in Norway that does quite a lot of business making metal and plastic tags of various kinds with text engraved, printed, or laser cut. As far as I know most of the machinery is made in Europe, mostly Germany, again generally higher cost than the US. So I find it difficult to believe that it can't be done in the US.
    - jfim 3y ago
      My guess is that it's likely cultural. Cost cutting seems to be done much more deeply in the US than in Europe. For example, economy class on all North American airlines is rather miserable, while most European non budget carriers have a better experience in economy.
      - tombert 3y ago
        I feel like, for better or worse, the US is sort of obsessed with figuring out how to drive costs down as low as possible, at least historically. So much early American industry was based around making mass-production more and more efficient, e.g. early assembly lines for the Ford company being an obvious case. In a lot of ways, this is obviously good, most people benefit from lower prices, more value being created, etc, but I think it's also made it so that cheap-but-ethically-dubious manufacturing from other countries becomes increasingly appealing, especially since it's abstracted enough from the end-user to where they can comfortably say "out of site out of mind". I'm no better; I know very well the conditions of some other countries, and think they're very bad. I also think it's bad that America fought a whole war to end slavery, and instead we just launder it through other countries. Still, despite me thinking all of this, I still generally shop for reasonable prices instead of trying to focus on ethical stuff.
      - roody15 3y ago
        Can confirm just got back from Barcelona on an Iberia flight. Evonomy on this flight was hands down better than any flight I have taken in the US. Food, service, even baggage policy was just simply a better experience. Honestly my mind was blown / food multiple meals included in price of economy seat. Just less nickel and diming and overall better experience,
    - jayrot 3y ago
      The metal nametags is a very poor example of the point being attempted since I would venture a guess that there are 1000s of companies or shops in the US that can make metal nametags.
      - 3y ago
geodel 3y ago
Well you can also try committing to new year resolutions and so many other things. But companies have bet on consumers value convenience over everything else. And so far they've been right in almost every instance.

tombert 3y ago

I think as of right now, it's nearly impossible to buy a guilt-free computer of any kind. It's a spectrum, obviously, but I think if you were to audit every component of any computer you buy from basically any company, you'd eventually get something kind of depressing. A relative of mine in the defense industry has told me that, generally speaking, the DoD requires that none of the components in missiles have parts manufactured by potential adversaries, which makes enough sense but is also extremely difficult now.

Dalewyn 3y ago
When I have to point to something when I say I doubt manufacturing will ever come back to the west, I point to the fact we can't manufacture the simplest of things ourselves anymore. Thanks Delta Airlines, whose metal nametags are literally just cut sheets of aluminum with some paint on them and are still Made in China. Someone seriously wants to tell me we can manufacture bleeding edge tech when we can't even cut and paint our own fucking sheet metal?
- reaperducer 3y ago
  Very often it's not about "can't," and more about "cheaper." There's plenty of places to get metal nametags made in the U.S.A. But Delta chose to go the cheapest route to save a few pennies.
- kwhitefoot 3y ago
  That's just weird. the US is definitely a lower cost country than Norway yet my youngest son works for a company here in Norway that does quite a lot of business making metal and plastic tags of various kinds with text engraved, printed, or laser cut. As far as I know most of the machinery is made in Europe, mostly Germany, again generally higher cost than the US. So I find it difficult to believe that it can't be done in the US.
  - jfim 3y ago
    My guess is that it's likely cultural. Cost cutting seems to be done much more deeply in the US than in Europe. For example, economy class on all North American airlines is rather miserable, while most European non budget carriers have a better experience in economy.
    - tombert 3y ago
      I feel like, for better or worse, the US is sort of obsessed with figuring out how to drive costs down as low as possible, at least historically. So much early American industry was based around making mass-production more and more efficient, e.g. early assembly lines for the Ford company being an obvious case. In a lot of ways, this is obviously good, most people benefit from lower prices, more value being created, etc, but I think it's also made it so that cheap-but-ethically-dubious manufacturing from other countries becomes increasingly appealing, especially since it's abstracted enough from the end-user to where they can comfortably say "out of site out of mind". I'm no better; I know very well the conditions of some other countries, and think they're very bad. I also think it's bad that America fought a whole war to end slavery, and instead we just launder it through other countries. Still, despite me thinking all of this, I still generally shop for reasonable prices instead of trying to focus on ethical stuff.
    - roody15 3y ago
      Can confirm just got back from Barcelona on an Iberia flight. Evonomy on this flight was hands down better than any flight I have taken in the US. Food, service, even baggage policy was just simply a better experience. Honestly my mind was blown / food multiple meals included in price of economy seat. Just less nickel and diming and overall better experience,
  - jayrot 3y ago
    The metal nametags is a very poor example of the point being attempted since I would venture a guess that there are 1000s of companies or shops in the US that can make metal nametags.
    - 3y ago

geodel 3y ago

Well you can also try committing to new year resolutions and so many other things. But companies have bet on consumers value convenience over everything else. And so far they've been right in almost every instance.