4 ms·

This is a person that should have never been in a leadership position. I have worked under these types of people that were great engineers themselves but couldn

by xyst 3y ago

This is a person that should have never been in a leadership position. I have worked under these types of people that were great engineers themselves but couldn’t lead worth shit. No trust in the team. Always doing shit themselves. No discussion. Backdoor discussions. Always bending to the will of management. Everything is “important”/“critical”. It’s micromanaging to the worst degree. At the same time, I would likely fail in the same way if given the position. Albeit, to a much lesser degree. I think management often puts us in these impossible positions without any good reason other than “to look good to X.” What’s even worse if it’s was just to earn fucking brownie points with some no name mid level director. This is why I think unions in tech would be great. To set realistic expectations, approach management from a collective point of view. Unfortunately companies today only aim to get that VC money with a quick exit and IPO. I think the general sentiment amongst the vultures is a union would make the quick exit less of a reality.

paulcole 3y ago
> Always doing shit themselves This is one of the most counterintuitive things about leadership roles IMO. If you get promoted there, it’s often because you got a lot of things done yourself in an IC role. And then the fewer things you do yourself, the better off you, the company, and your reports are once you’re in a leadership role. So you have to learn that feeling idle compared to what you used to feel like isn’t a sign that you’re doing a bad job.
- bluGill 3y ago
  In addition as a leader your best use is often to be interrupted with questions from junior engineers. This means you can never (or rarely) get into a flow where you are productive, as you are getting close someone interrupts your thought with a question. As such if you have time to work on engineering (which you should make to stay sharp) it needs to be something unimportant to the business so that you can be late. Trying to add a new warning to your static analysis tool, checking out the latest framework to see if you should switch to it in the future - and other such things that you really want and long term are good but short term won't pay the bills.
  - paulcole 3y ago
    > In addition as a leader your best use is often to be interrupted with questions from junior engineers. I kinda disagree w/ this. I get better results from helping people understand this: https://www.techtello.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/decision-tree-for-making-better-decisions.png https://www.techtello.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/decisio... And then making sure that they're taking action when they should take action and getting help when they should be getting help. This means they are wrong sometimes but it's better for them to be wrong sometimes and learn than to be interrupting with too many questions when they should just be doing their best. Admittedly at this point my only direct reports are bosses themselves, but they vast majority of questions they have for me go into a shared 1:1 doc that we address monthly. Everything else they take action on and report as needed.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      Kindof, but a lot of time has been wasted figuring out something that someone else already has done.
      - paulcole 3y ago
        Better to figure things out on your own than learn that you can always interrupt someone else when you get a little stuck.
        bluGill 3y ago
        Days are often wasted because you do that. That is at best, I'm now up to 4 different implementations of a complex protocol (at months each to build and debug) because nobody asked a question. sure you shouldn't just ask for every problem, but don't struggle too long when someone knows the answer.
        paulcole 3y ago
        I wonder if there’s a middle ground between interrupting constantly whenever you have a problem and wasting days searching for a solution?
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  The best advice I heard about the switch from regular engineer to mgmt role was this: A software engineer works to build harmonious productive stable software systems. An engineering manager works to build harmonious productive stable people systems. The product is different. So many people who move into management don't make this mental shift and keep their hands on the steering wheel because that's how they got there in the first place. But if you don't let others drive, you won't be able to keep the car on the road for long. If you go into that role your job is to mostly get your hands off the nuts and bolts of the software system and create people systems of motivation, trust, and organization to get your team members working well on them instead. I've never made the transition myself but have increasingly thought about it.
  - paulcole 3y ago
    Yeah this is a big point in High Output Management by Andy Grove. That to be a manager (or to do any job really) you need to understand what you're producing and how to measure the quantity and quality of that output – ideally identifying issues with output before they become costly to fix. Much easier said than done but it was a real Aha moment for me as a boss.
zero-sharp 3y ago
>No trust in the team. Always doing shit themselves. No discussion. Yup, I've had a boss like this. Maybe my company was particularly dysfunctional, but I didn't have much experience with the projects and tasks I was being assigned. I definitely was not hiding it either. Then when I spent time trying to figure things out on my own, my boss would simply do the work himself and provide no feedback.
- dvdbloc 3y ago
  Currently have a manager like this and trying to determine how to deal with it. I’m basically just waiting for him to burn himself out from his own constant dysfunction and leave. He’s so engrained in this behavior I don’t even know how I could provide him constructive feedback to help him.
  - jampekka 3y ago
    I do someting like this quite a bit. If I deem it's easier to do it myself than to instruct or supervise someone else doing it, I do it myself. This is quite often the case. I don't see how doing it the harder way would somehow help with not burning out. Do you think it's easier for your manager that you do the things than that he does them themselves? Have you tought of ways that you would make it easier for them for you to do the things? Lucily I'm not really manager but I do have some responsibility of projects with other people.
    - zero-sharp 3y ago
      >I do someting like this quite a bit. If I deem it's easier to do it myself than to instruct or supervise someone else doing it, I do it myself. This is quite often the case. I don't see how doing it the harder way would somehow help with not burning out. You will most likely always be more efficient than the people who are less senior/just starting out. So then: when do you decide it's worth it to help those less senior team members become more efficient? Will you ever want to delegate? My experience was probably unique, but this kind of management style 1) undermines my work/communicates a lack of trust, and 2) communicates that you're not willing to invest in other people. But maybe the difference is that I was being explicitly delegated work, having my boss complete it unbeknownst to me, and then just getting silence.
shultays 3y ago
People are promoted to their level of incompetence
- jampekka 3y ago
  Ergo all CEOs are incompetent. Explains quite a bit.
kortilla 3y ago
> This is why I think unions in tech would be great. To set realistic expectations, approach management from a collective point of view. What? The person in this scenario wouldn’t be in the union once promoted. Unions don’t do anything for manager to director dynamics.
- giantg2 3y ago
  But it would shield the team under them. In which case it could alter the manager-director relationship through second order effects.
steve_gh 3y ago
And this is an organizational failure, because the organisation has just promoted, without training someone to be a leader. You wouldn't expect a manager (from a non-technical background) to just start coding, so why would you expect a coder to just start managing.
- giantg2 3y ago
  Most places that "train" just have some online courses, maybe an in-person or two. I don't know of anywhere that has some sort of real training like apprentice program.
  - xyst 3y ago
    lmao - this is what I have experienced as well. Somehow these online courses with no way to ask questions will magically contain everything you need to know! Who knew? An MBA mindset contained inside a 1 hour mindset!1 Why did these MBA guys spend $250K!?
  - skeeter2020 3y ago
    I'll post this only because this is an area where I'm really passionate, and you're right and that the current state most places sucks. I've tried to address it as a manager who strongly believes that engineering management needs to be viewed as a discipline. I've implemented a Lead Mentorship Program at two places; one very successfully and the other with some progress (still hustling for engagement/commitment): https://www.codeleadmanage.com/articles/20230919-lead_mentorship_program.html https://www.codeleadmanage.com/articles/20230919-lead_mentor...
- skeeter2020 3y ago
  This happens all the time because management is viewed as a promotion so you reward your best developers by giving them a job where they might suck and/or hate it. I think there are 2 big levers you need to address it: 1. Dual career ladders. You should recognize/reward some level of technical role (i.e. staff or similar) the same as management. Every senior person is a leader; I argue ICs have a tougher job because they don't have the "because you report to me" hammer. 2. Lead mentorship program. Potential managers need experience; you need to coach and validate. They need a chance to manage a single person over time, do a performance review cycle, 1:1s, feedback conversations,etc. Co-ops/iterns are great for this because it's a fixed time period! You need 3 conditions to promote someone into management: 1. the need, 2. the individual's desire, 3. the individual's skills & experience. An LMP gives you signal on all. I'll add 1(b): People need to be able to move laterally between ladders. This is in everyone's best interest; having an amazing staff dev muddling through as a team lead just means they're going to quit soon. This is a REALLY LONG way of saying I agree with the parent, but the solution is both known and doable. I'll get down off my soapbox now.
afpx 3y ago
What are the qualities of the best leaders you've encountered or worked for? Which ones are most effective at getting things done while keeping the team and senior leadership happy?
- mistrial9 3y ago
  fifty percent of managers, manage through fear .. an industry veteran once said .. "virtue stories" will ignore this ugly fact of hierarchical commercial services
n4r9 3y ago
It's an oversimplification to say they "should have never been" a leader. In truth, they could have used specific training in prioritisation, delegation, and emotional intelligence. I find it's rare that this sort of training is provided. Instead, good performers are thrown into the deep end to see if they can hack it.
- convolvatron 3y ago
  maybe? the worst managers I've had are expressing real substantive emotional or general dysfunction. I don't know that training is really going to help with that. its also a big culture question. I personally view the model where the manager is 'in charge' as being fundamentally unhelpful, and alot of organizations as a whole promote this model. that alternative being 'the supporting adult in the room that trying to help the team do their best work and make hard decisions if absolutely necessary'
  - n4r9 3y ago
    No doubt there are some managers like that. My take from the linked article is that this person had the will and ability to grow but they lacked an internalised reassurance that it's okay when things don't go to plan and aren't perfect. Importantly, they were open to learning about emotional reasoning. In my mind a good training course can provide that reassurance in the form of a statement like > It is absolutely normal for managers to be constantly juggling a large number of nebulous demands, to finish most days without wrapping anything up, and to feel like there are a large number of unknown and uncontrolled variables. Do not work excessive overtime or refuse to delegate tasks in order to avoid this.
- P_I_Staker 3y ago
  I have no idea where he's getting it from either. Dude seemed to just stress himself out too much. Organizations encourage it, and promote people that do it. It's also incredibly exclusionary. If you have the slightest neuroses, never be a leader! You'll find this is often a race to the bottom too. While presumably not applicable to him, you'd be surprised how many people and organizations have opinions about how impossible it is to hire anyone with mental health problems. Then it becomes "just flip burgers like a loser and go to prison addicted to stimulants you useless eater, all of you people"
skrebbel 3y ago
> This is a person that should have never been in a leadership position This is the kind of crap that stops people writing blog posts about vulnerable topics like mental health. I mean really? Author opens up about a terrible shit show and their role in it, and your response is “yeah you suck at that, don’t do it.” I dont think that’s very constructive.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- malfist 3y ago
  They're also making the judgement (you suck at management) from a single blog post about mental health with no other context. There just isn't enough information here to make that judgement. This is nothing short of bullying someone for talking about their mental health, I hope the author doesn't see this.
- g4zj 3y ago
  This point hits home for me. I often don't write about things I'm feeling because I can already hear the responses of everyone who will intentionally miss the point in order to draw attention to something else, as if I'm completely oblivious to that other issue. Being able to express what we're feeling without having our thoughts dismissed or disregarded simply because of how we arrived in our current situation is very important for mental wellbeing. Don't get me wrong, I do understand the point being made above, it's just doesn't seem very helpful, as you said.
- xyst 3y ago
  Huh? The toxic positivity about it is not helpful either.
jghn 3y ago
> No trust in the team. Always doing shit themselves. This was one of the hardest lessons for me to learn. And when coaching other would-be leaders it often is a roadblock for them as well. As one moves into a leadership role it becomes critical that you learn to be ok with people doing things not the way you'd do them. You need to learn to accept close/good enough from your underlings. And the "enough" in close/good enough is going to be a larger delta than you think going into this learning process.
- btilly 3y ago
  It is not just "not the way you'd do them". You were promoted for doing your work better than others. Those others did not improve because you got promoted. So you have to figure out how to get useful work out of people who are doing things in a worse way. And let them do things that way even though you already know what's wrong with it.
  - jghn 3y ago
    Yes that's also a challenge, and while in similar it's not quite the same.
- coffeebeqn 3y ago
  It is psychologically tricky to go from an engineer to a manager or lead. I also used to just feel guilty like I was offloading my work on other people who already had plenty to do. I did then later improve by managing their workloads and the long term roadmap to make sure everyone is working reasonable hours
sublinear 3y ago
A union wouldn't change anything for the better (in the United States). The tech industry would just hire abroad more. If they ever did decide to hire union workers for whatever reason it would just be another layer of bureaucracy killing the company and stressing out employees.
mdgrech23 3y ago
I'm glad you came to the realization that we need unions. We're also overmanaged because the actual managers e.g. the C suite thinks we need to be watched over. Historically the rate of workers to managers was way lower.
- baron816 3y ago
  You think unions would solve this problem? Adding unions would just insert a whole other parallel management team that'll tell you what you can and can't do. They're not going to simplify anything.
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    Unions insert a potential for improvement because they come with critically different motivation. Workplaces suffer from compulsions by MBAs, who prioritize shareholders and exec bonuses above the welfare of employees/consumers/company. A union has an ability to raise the priority of employees in this equation - and ease MBA pressures to exploit consumers and degrade the company. But because unions are groups of people, they are subject to the same corrupting principle that afflicts every group of people. Nobody, anywhere wants to clean their own house. A union can be a force for good, as long as it's leaders+members continue to fix the internals that need fixing.
ninininino 3y ago
Someone with the intellectual arrogance to proclaim someone unfit for a job after reading a single blog post by them is also unfit for leadership.
P_I_Staker 3y ago
I'm saddened to see such disgusting ablism at the forefront of HackerNews. More evidence that SV is filled with close minded fascists. These are people, not useless eaters. Given my experience with HN this type of criticism is high likely to result in scrutiny by the admins. The biases on this site really need to be re-evaluated.

by xyst 3y ago

paulcole 3y ago

> Always doing shit themselves This is one of the most counterintuitive things about leadership roles IMO. If you get promoted there, it’s often because you got a lot of things done yourself in an IC role. And then the fewer things you do yourself, the better off you, the company, and your reports are once you’re in a leadership role. So you have to learn that feeling idle compared to what you used to feel like isn’t a sign that you’re doing a bad job.

bluGill 3y ago
In addition as a leader your best use is often to be interrupted with questions from junior engineers. This means you can never (or rarely) get into a flow where you are productive, as you are getting close someone interrupts your thought with a question. As such if you have time to work on engineering (which you should make to stay sharp) it needs to be something unimportant to the business so that you can be late. Trying to add a new warning to your static analysis tool, checking out the latest framework to see if you should switch to it in the future - and other such things that you really want and long term are good but short term won't pay the bills.
- paulcole 3y ago
  > In addition as a leader your best use is often to be interrupted with questions from junior engineers. I kinda disagree w/ this. I get better results from helping people understand this: https://www.techtello.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/decision-tree-for-making-better-decisions.png https://www.techtello.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/decisio... And then making sure that they're taking action when they should take action and getting help when they should be getting help. This means they are wrong sometimes but it's better for them to be wrong sometimes and learn than to be interrupting with too many questions when they should just be doing their best. Admittedly at this point my only direct reports are bosses themselves, but they vast majority of questions they have for me go into a shared 1:1 doc that we address monthly. Everything else they take action on and report as needed.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    Kindof, but a lot of time has been wasted figuring out something that someone else already has done.
    - paulcole 3y ago
      Better to figure things out on your own than learn that you can always interrupt someone else when you get a little stuck.
      - bluGill 3y ago
        Days are often wasted because you do that. That is at best, I'm now up to 4 different implementations of a complex protocol (at months each to build and debug) because nobody asked a question. sure you shouldn't just ask for every problem, but don't struggle too long when someone knows the answer.
        paulcole 3y ago
        I wonder if there’s a middle ground between interrupting constantly whenever you have a problem and wasting days searching for a solution?
cmrdporcupine 3y ago
The best advice I heard about the switch from regular engineer to mgmt role was this: A software engineer works to build harmonious productive stable software systems. An engineering manager works to build harmonious productive stable people systems. The product is different. So many people who move into management don't make this mental shift and keep their hands on the steering wheel because that's how they got there in the first place. But if you don't let others drive, you won't be able to keep the car on the road for long. If you go into that role your job is to mostly get your hands off the nuts and bolts of the software system and create people systems of motivation, trust, and organization to get your team members working well on them instead. I've never made the transition myself but have increasingly thought about it.
- paulcole 3y ago
  Yeah this is a big point in High Output Management by Andy Grove. That to be a manager (or to do any job really) you need to understand what you're producing and how to measure the quantity and quality of that output – ideally identifying issues with output before they become costly to fix. Much easier said than done but it was a real Aha moment for me as a boss.

zero-sharp 3y ago

>No trust in the team. Always doing shit themselves. No discussion. Yup, I've had a boss like this. Maybe my company was particularly dysfunctional, but I didn't have much experience with the projects and tasks I was being assigned. I definitely was not hiding it either. Then when I spent time trying to figure things out on my own, my boss would simply do the work himself and provide no feedback.

dvdbloc 3y ago
Currently have a manager like this and trying to determine how to deal with it. I’m basically just waiting for him to burn himself out from his own constant dysfunction and leave. He’s so engrained in this behavior I don’t even know how I could provide him constructive feedback to help him.
- jampekka 3y ago
  I do someting like this quite a bit. If I deem it's easier to do it myself than to instruct or supervise someone else doing it, I do it myself. This is quite often the case. I don't see how doing it the harder way would somehow help with not burning out. Do you think it's easier for your manager that you do the things than that he does them themselves? Have you tought of ways that you would make it easier for them for you to do the things? Lucily I'm not really manager but I do have some responsibility of projects with other people.
  - zero-sharp 3y ago
    >I do someting like this quite a bit. If I deem it's easier to do it myself than to instruct or supervise someone else doing it, I do it myself. This is quite often the case. I don't see how doing it the harder way would somehow help with not burning out. You will most likely always be more efficient than the people who are less senior/just starting out. So then: when do you decide it's worth it to help those less senior team members become more efficient? Will you ever want to delegate? My experience was probably unique, but this kind of management style 1) undermines my work/communicates a lack of trust, and 2) communicates that you're not willing to invest in other people. But maybe the difference is that I was being explicitly delegated work, having my boss complete it unbeknownst to me, and then just getting silence.

shultays 3y ago

People are promoted to their level of incompetence

jampekka 3y ago
Ergo all CEOs are incompetent. Explains quite a bit.

kortilla 3y ago

> This is why I think unions in tech would be great. To set realistic expectations, approach management from a collective point of view. What? The person in this scenario wouldn’t be in the union once promoted. Unions don’t do anything for manager to director dynamics.

giantg2 3y ago
But it would shield the team under them. In which case it could alter the manager-director relationship through second order effects.

steve_gh 3y ago

And this is an organizational failure, because the organisation has just promoted, without training someone to be a leader. You wouldn't expect a manager (from a non-technical background) to just start coding, so why would you expect a coder to just start managing.

giantg2 3y ago
Most places that "train" just have some online courses, maybe an in-person or two. I don't know of anywhere that has some sort of real training like apprentice program.
- xyst 3y ago
  lmao - this is what I have experienced as well. Somehow these online courses with no way to ask questions will magically contain everything you need to know! Who knew? An MBA mindset contained inside a 1 hour mindset!1 Why did these MBA guys spend $250K!?
- skeeter2020 3y ago
  I'll post this only because this is an area where I'm really passionate, and you're right and that the current state most places sucks. I've tried to address it as a manager who strongly believes that engineering management needs to be viewed as a discipline. I've implemented a Lead Mentorship Program at two places; one very successfully and the other with some progress (still hustling for engagement/commitment): https://www.codeleadmanage.com/articles/20230919-lead_mentorship_program.html https://www.codeleadmanage.com/articles/20230919-lead_mentor...
skeeter2020 3y ago
This happens all the time because management is viewed as a promotion so you reward your best developers by giving them a job where they might suck and/or hate it. I think there are 2 big levers you need to address it: 1. Dual career ladders. You should recognize/reward some level of technical role (i.e. staff or similar) the same as management. Every senior person is a leader; I argue ICs have a tougher job because they don't have the "because you report to me" hammer. 2. Lead mentorship program. Potential managers need experience; you need to coach and validate. They need a chance to manage a single person over time, do a performance review cycle, 1:1s, feedback conversations,etc. Co-ops/iterns are great for this because it's a fixed time period! You need 3 conditions to promote someone into management: 1. the need, 2. the individual's desire, 3. the individual's skills & experience. An LMP gives you signal on all. I'll add 1(b): People need to be able to move laterally between ladders. This is in everyone's best interest; having an amazing staff dev muddling through as a team lead just means they're going to quit soon. This is a REALLY LONG way of saying I agree with the parent, but the solution is both known and doable. I'll get down off my soapbox now.

afpx 3y ago

What are the qualities of the best leaders you've encountered or worked for? Which ones are most effective at getting things done while keeping the team and senior leadership happy?

mistrial9 3y ago
fifty percent of managers, manage through fear .. an industry veteran once said .. "virtue stories" will ignore this ugly fact of hierarchical commercial services

n4r9 3y ago

It's an oversimplification to say they "should have never been" a leader. In truth, they could have used specific training in prioritisation, delegation, and emotional intelligence. I find it's rare that this sort of training is provided. Instead, good performers are thrown into the deep end to see if they can hack it.

convolvatron 3y ago
maybe? the worst managers I've had are expressing real substantive emotional or general dysfunction. I don't know that training is really going to help with that. its also a big culture question. I personally view the model where the manager is 'in charge' as being fundamentally unhelpful, and alot of organizations as a whole promote this model. that alternative being 'the supporting adult in the room that trying to help the team do their best work and make hard decisions if absolutely necessary'
- n4r9 3y ago
  No doubt there are some managers like that. My take from the linked article is that this person had the will and ability to grow but they lacked an internalised reassurance that it's okay when things don't go to plan and aren't perfect. Importantly, they were open to learning about emotional reasoning. In my mind a good training course can provide that reassurance in the form of a statement like > It is absolutely normal for managers to be constantly juggling a large number of nebulous demands, to finish most days without wrapping anything up, and to feel like there are a large number of unknown and uncontrolled variables. Do not work excessive overtime or refuse to delegate tasks in order to avoid this.
P_I_Staker 3y ago
I have no idea where he's getting it from either. Dude seemed to just stress himself out too much. Organizations encourage it, and promote people that do it. It's also incredibly exclusionary. If you have the slightest neuroses, never be a leader! You'll find this is often a race to the bottom too. While presumably not applicable to him, you'd be surprised how many people and organizations have opinions about how impossible it is to hire anyone with mental health problems. Then it becomes "just flip burgers like a loser and go to prison addicted to stimulants you useless eater, all of you people"

skrebbel 3y ago

> This is a person that should have never been in a leadership position This is the kind of crap that stops people writing blog posts about vulnerable topics like mental health. I mean really? Author opens up about a terrible shit show and their role in it, and your response is “yeah you suck at that, don’t do it.” I dont think that’s very constructive.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
malfist 3y ago
They're also making the judgement (you suck at management) from a single blog post about mental health with no other context. There just isn't enough information here to make that judgement. This is nothing short of bullying someone for talking about their mental health, I hope the author doesn't see this.
g4zj 3y ago
This point hits home for me. I often don't write about things I'm feeling because I can already hear the responses of everyone who will intentionally miss the point in order to draw attention to something else, as if I'm completely oblivious to that other issue. Being able to express what we're feeling without having our thoughts dismissed or disregarded simply because of how we arrived in our current situation is very important for mental wellbeing. Don't get me wrong, I do understand the point being made above, it's just doesn't seem very helpful, as you said.
xyst 3y ago
Huh? The toxic positivity about it is not helpful either.

jghn 3y ago

> No trust in the team. Always doing shit themselves. This was one of the hardest lessons for me to learn. And when coaching other would-be leaders it often is a roadblock for them as well. As one moves into a leadership role it becomes critical that you learn to be ok with people doing things not the way you'd do them. You need to learn to accept close/good enough from your underlings. And the "enough" in close/good enough is going to be a larger delta than you think going into this learning process.

btilly 3y ago
It is not just "not the way you'd do them". You were promoted for doing your work better than others. Those others did not improve because you got promoted. So you have to figure out how to get useful work out of people who are doing things in a worse way. And let them do things that way even though you already know what's wrong with it.
- jghn 3y ago
  Yes that's also a challenge, and while in similar it's not quite the same.
coffeebeqn 3y ago
It is psychologically tricky to go from an engineer to a manager or lead. I also used to just feel guilty like I was offloading my work on other people who already had plenty to do. I did then later improve by managing their workloads and the long term roadmap to make sure everyone is working reasonable hours

sublinear 3y ago

A union wouldn't change anything for the better (in the United States). The tech industry would just hire abroad more. If they ever did decide to hire union workers for whatever reason it would just be another layer of bureaucracy killing the company and stressing out employees.

mdgrech23 3y ago

I'm glad you came to the realization that we need unions. We're also overmanaged because the actual managers e.g. the C suite thinks we need to be watched over. Historically the rate of workers to managers was way lower.

baron816 3y ago
You think unions would solve this problem? Adding unions would just insert a whole other parallel management team that'll tell you what you can and can't do. They're not going to simplify anything.
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  Unions insert a potential for improvement because they come with critically different motivation. Workplaces suffer from compulsions by MBAs, who prioritize shareholders and exec bonuses above the welfare of employees/consumers/company. A union has an ability to raise the priority of employees in this equation - and ease MBA pressures to exploit consumers and degrade the company. But because unions are groups of people, they are subject to the same corrupting principle that afflicts every group of people. Nobody, anywhere wants to clean their own house. A union can be a force for good, as long as it's leaders+members continue to fix the internals that need fixing.

ninininino 3y ago

Someone with the intellectual arrogance to proclaim someone unfit for a job after reading a single blog post by them is also unfit for leadership.

P_I_Staker 3y ago

I'm saddened to see such disgusting ablism at the forefront of HackerNews. More evidence that SV is filled with close minded fascists. These are people, not useless eaters. Given my experience with HN this type of criticism is high likely to result in scrutiny by the admins. The biases on this site really need to be re-evaluated.