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I agree with you on the reason Developers go to hackathons. That's why they're so likely to be taken advantage of. I'm simply saying that the young developer co

I agree with you on the reason Developers go to hackathons. That's why they're so likely to be taken advantage of. I'm simply saying that the young developer community needs to be wary. Regarding "hacker mansions" a cursory read of this job posting should reveal what I'm referring to: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3961037 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3961037 It's clearly written by someone who thinks they can throw material things at a Developer and then get them to work 20-hour days for three months straight.

olivercameron 14y ago
I'm just not entirely sure how someone can be taken advantage of at a hackathon. Are you implying that someone will steal their product? Or that they'll somehow be convinced to give up a large % stake in their project by someone who can't code? Again, an example of a hackathon where this has happened would be great. Besmirching the name of hackathons in general is wrong. As for hacker mansions, the post you linked to opens with "Like the idea of living/working in a Palo Alto hacker mansion?". If the answer to that question is no, then the likelihood is you wouldn't apply to this job. I disagree with your assessment that this ad is "clearly written by someone who thinks they can throw material things at a Developer and then get them to work 20-hour days for three months straight". From my perspective, they're offering an amazing summer experience for the right candidate who wants to work with them. This ad is clearly not aimed for experienced developers, but rather young folk who are looking to get experience in the startup community. Let's not forget that employment is at will, so if someone is not enjoying working at such a place, they can leave at any time. I, for one, know a bunch of people who love and thrive in such environments. As for "20-hour days", that's just a number you've thrown out. Who's to say you couldn't have a great work/life balance at a hacker mansion?
- ryancarson 14y ago
  You can be taken advantage of simply by participating. Hackathons that are tacked on to events are a great example: they're simply a way to sell more tickets. I've been guilty of this in the past on shows we've done (Twitter's Chirp conf, etc). Can good things happen at these hackathons? You bet. That doesn't mean Developers shouldn't be careful though. As for "20-hour days", that's just a number you've thrown out. Who's to say you couldn't have a great work/life balance at a hacker mansion? The whole point of a "hacker mansion" is to work 7 days a week for three months straight.
  - geraldalewis 14y ago
    > they're simply a way to sell more tickets. That doesn't sound like taking advantage; that sounds like quid pro quo. Developers are buying tickets to attend a hackathon.
  - olivercameron 14y ago
    Have you ever lived in a hacker house? I haven't, and if you haven't, then I don't think either of us are in the position to say the whole point of living in a hacker house is to work non-stop. You simply don't know that. Of course lots of work is going to get done at such a place, but who said that the experience and fun wouldn't also be incredibly beneficial to a young developer?
    - koko775 14y ago
      I lived in the Palo Alto hacker house for a time. It wasn't "rah-rah entrepeneurs!!!" - though it had some - it was just a comfortable place to talk with people on similar wavelengths.
    - jmtame 14y ago
      I've lived in 3 hacker houses (still living in one now), and it's been a nice place to live with like-minded individuals. It's equal parts fun and hard work.
  - borski 14y ago
    Living in a hacker mansion right now, I can guarantee you that isn't the case. Our hacker mansion is filled with people working on different companies, at different stages (some funded, some not, some with customers, some without, etc.), and all of whom add something interesting and different to the diversity of the house. I take _at least_ 1 day a week off, often two. But frankly, sometimes others have to tell me to, since I love what I'm doing. In short, hacker mansions can work out great if the people there are vetted, smart, passionate, and okay with having social lives. If you get together a group of people who are only going to work 24/7, guess what, they'll work together and burn out together. That's not the house we built. Furthermore, I get to hang out with deer and wild turkeys while I relax in an enormous house with killer amenities; I wouldn't have the money to pay for that myself. I code and run my business mostly from our shared office space in Palo Alto. (Full disclosure: this is a separate and entirely different hacker house from the one ryancarson is talking about, but a hacker house nonetheless.)
sbisker 14y ago
On that note, I really wish commenting was turned back on for HN job postings. I understand why they were turned off - people trying to expose anonymity for instance - but since they left, I feel like I see worse and worse postings, with little repercussions - or at least community feedback - to the companies who post...
- philwelch 14y ago
  Comments were never "on" for HN job postings.
  - sbisker 14y ago
    Ok, strictly speaking, YC companies would just post the jobs as regular submissions, and the job posting category came in part to shut off commenting. The point remains the same though.
drumdance 14y ago
I think it's about expectations. I would never sign up for the project you linked to, but that's because I'm a 40-something serial entrepreneur. OTOH if I were a college CS major I would seriously consider it. My biggest regret career-wise is that as a young coder I never got a chance to work on cool projects and find mentors. I had to create those projects on my own without much guidance. The company running that ad should realize they will likely attract developers who are pretty green. If so, no harm no foul. If they expect an experienced rock star to show up, they are delusional. An inexperienced rock star might show up, but they should treat that as a happy accident.
Zak 14y ago
That ad is for an internship, not a hackathon. It offers room, board and $3333/month. That's a better offer than most summer jobs for college students and more money than most students would make freelancing. Unpaid internships are still disturbingly common. The ad makes it clear that real work is expected. I really don't see a problem here.
larrys 14y ago
"It's clearly written by someone who thinks they can throw material things at a Developer and then get them to work 20-hour days for three months straight." Clearly? Given it's almost certainly not a 9 to 5 job. But I fail to see anything that indicates the job is consists of "20-hour days for three months straight". As an aside part of being young (or not knowing about something when you are old) is learning from experience. Even though I don't necessarily agree that this involves 20 hour days, it seems like a reasonable paid opportunity and a good environment. If I wanted to break into TV, I would totally think it was reasonable to spend time as a 24 hour a day personal assistant to an important person doing whatever needed to be done to make connections. FWIW I spent some time recently doing free work for a VC in something I know about. And, viola, they are now sending me paid customers. Just like that. I gave them hours and hours of my time (with no expectation of any return) and it has paid off. I really think you have the wrong attitude toward this situation.
pbiggar 14y ago
I fail to see how this is taking advantage. A typical intern wage in the Valley is 5-6K per month. This is 10K for a 12(?) week stint. The pay is a bit low, but it sounds like included perks make up for it. That rent must be about $1500 per person per month, bringing the total salary up to 14.5K - not significantly less than the standard. A lot of young developers like this lifestyle - I know I did (I am sadly not 22 anymore). Just because it isn't the right lifestyle for you (and other people with families and responsibilities) doesn't mean people are being taken for a ride. Edit: I now see that that 10K is for 10 weeks, bringing the salary right into the middle of the "normal" Valley intern range (aka higher than most American's highest lifetime salary)

olivercameron 14y ago

I'm just not entirely sure how someone can be taken advantage of at a hackathon. Are you implying that someone will steal their product? Or that they'll somehow be convinced to give up a large % stake in their project by someone who can't code? Again, an example of a hackathon where this has happened would be great. Besmirching the name of hackathons in general is wrong. As for hacker mansions, the post you linked to opens with "Like the idea of living/working in a Palo Alto hacker mansion?". If the answer to that question is no, then the likelihood is you wouldn't apply to this job. I disagree with your assessment that this ad is "clearly written by someone who thinks they can throw material things at a Developer and then get them to work 20-hour days for three months straight". From my perspective, they're offering an amazing summer experience for the right candidate who wants to work with them. This ad is clearly not aimed for experienced developers, but rather young folk who are looking to get experience in the startup community. Let's not forget that employment is at will, so if someone is not enjoying working at such a place, they can leave at any time. I, for one, know a bunch of people who love and thrive in such environments. As for "20-hour days", that's just a number you've thrown out. Who's to say you couldn't have a great work/life balance at a hacker mansion?

ryancarson 14y ago
You can be taken advantage of simply by participating. Hackathons that are tacked on to events are a great example: they're simply a way to sell more tickets. I've been guilty of this in the past on shows we've done (Twitter's Chirp conf, etc). Can good things happen at these hackathons? You bet. That doesn't mean Developers shouldn't be careful though. As for "20-hour days", that's just a number you've thrown out. Who's to say you couldn't have a great work/life balance at a hacker mansion? The whole point of a "hacker mansion" is to work 7 days a week for three months straight.
- geraldalewis 14y ago
  > they're simply a way to sell more tickets. That doesn't sound like taking advantage; that sounds like quid pro quo. Developers are buying tickets to attend a hackathon.
- olivercameron 14y ago
  Have you ever lived in a hacker house? I haven't, and if you haven't, then I don't think either of us are in the position to say the whole point of living in a hacker house is to work non-stop. You simply don't know that. Of course lots of work is going to get done at such a place, but who said that the experience and fun wouldn't also be incredibly beneficial to a young developer?
  - koko775 14y ago
    I lived in the Palo Alto hacker house for a time. It wasn't "rah-rah entrepeneurs!!!" - though it had some - it was just a comfortable place to talk with people on similar wavelengths.
  - jmtame 14y ago
    I've lived in 3 hacker houses (still living in one now), and it's been a nice place to live with like-minded individuals. It's equal parts fun and hard work.
- borski 14y ago
  Living in a hacker mansion right now, I can guarantee you that isn't the case. Our hacker mansion is filled with people working on different companies, at different stages (some funded, some not, some with customers, some without, etc.), and all of whom add something interesting and different to the diversity of the house. I take _at least_ 1 day a week off, often two. But frankly, sometimes others have to tell me to, since I love what I'm doing. In short, hacker mansions can work out great if the people there are vetted, smart, passionate, and okay with having social lives. If you get together a group of people who are only going to work 24/7, guess what, they'll work together and burn out together. That's not the house we built. Furthermore, I get to hang out with deer and wild turkeys while I relax in an enormous house with killer amenities; I wouldn't have the money to pay for that myself. I code and run my business mostly from our shared office space in Palo Alto. (Full disclosure: this is a separate and entirely different hacker house from the one ryancarson is talking about, but a hacker house nonetheless.)

sbisker 14y ago

On that note, I really wish commenting was turned back on for HN job postings. I understand why they were turned off - people trying to expose anonymity for instance - but since they left, I feel like I see worse and worse postings, with little repercussions - or at least community feedback - to the companies who post...

philwelch 14y ago
Comments were never "on" for HN job postings.
- sbisker 14y ago
  Ok, strictly speaking, YC companies would just post the jobs as regular submissions, and the job posting category came in part to shut off commenting. The point remains the same though.

drumdance 14y ago

I think it's about expectations. I would never sign up for the project you linked to, but that's because I'm a 40-something serial entrepreneur. OTOH if I were a college CS major I would seriously consider it. My biggest regret career-wise is that as a young coder I never got a chance to work on cool projects and find mentors. I had to create those projects on my own without much guidance. The company running that ad should realize they will likely attract developers who are pretty green. If so, no harm no foul. If they expect an experienced rock star to show up, they are delusional. An inexperienced rock star might show up, but they should treat that as a happy accident.

Zak 14y ago

That ad is for an internship, not a hackathon. It offers room, board and $3333/month. That's a better offer than most summer jobs for college students and more money than most students would make freelancing. Unpaid internships are still disturbingly common. The ad makes it clear that real work is expected. I really don't see a problem here.

larrys 14y ago

"It's clearly written by someone who thinks they can throw material things at a Developer and then get them to work 20-hour days for three months straight." Clearly? Given it's almost certainly not a 9 to 5 job. But I fail to see anything that indicates the job is consists of "20-hour days for three months straight". As an aside part of being young (or not knowing about something when you are old) is learning from experience. Even though I don't necessarily agree that this involves 20 hour days, it seems like a reasonable paid opportunity and a good environment. If I wanted to break into TV, I would totally think it was reasonable to spend time as a 24 hour a day personal assistant to an important person doing whatever needed to be done to make connections. FWIW I spent some time recently doing free work for a VC in something I know about. And, viola, they are now sending me paid customers. Just like that. I gave them hours and hours of my time (with no expectation of any return) and it has paid off. I really think you have the wrong attitude toward this situation.

pbiggar 14y ago

I fail to see how this is taking advantage. A typical intern wage in the Valley is 5-6K per month. This is 10K for a 12(?) week stint. The pay is a bit low, but it sounds like included perks make up for it. That rent must be about $1500 per person per month, bringing the total salary up to 14.5K - not significantly less than the standard. A lot of young developers like this lifestyle - I know I did (I am sadly not 22 anymore). Just because it isn't the right lifestyle for you (and other people with families and responsibilities) doesn't mean people are being taken for a ride. Edit: I now see that that 10K is for 10 weeks, bringing the salary right into the middle of the "normal" Valley intern range (aka higher than most American's highest lifetime salary)