8 ms·

> local chiefs who oppose stupid and unrealistic white elephant vanity projects are executed. Let's not gloss over the absolutely appalling respect many of the

> local chiefs who oppose stupid and unrealistic white elephant vanity projects are executed. Let's not gloss over the absolutely appalling respect many of these societies have for human dignity. Public executions and flogging, discrimination and imprisonment based solely on gender, absolutely zero regard for freedom of conscience when it comes to matters of religion. There's only so much you can get away with by saying it's my society's accepted practice, what's wrong is wrong. And there's plenty wrong with other countries and societies too, including my own, but it doesn't excuse human rights indifference.

satvikpendem 2y ago
Not to mention literal modern day slavery where they bring in South Asians on the promise of better pay, then take away their passports and pay them pennies.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- atlasunshrugged 2y ago
  Increasingly seems like they're coming from East Africa too, although it appears it may be at the behest of the government in some cases. https://africanarguments.org/2024/03/go-gulf-is-ethiopia-sacrificing-youth-workers-to-balance-economy/ https://africanarguments.org/2024/03/go-gulf-is-ethiopia-sac...
- pas 2y ago
  How Qatar built the stadiums for the World Cup? Well, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMqLDhl8PXw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMqLDhl8PXw
  - tzs 2y ago
    Disclaimer: Qatar is a terrible place when it comes to treatment of migrant workers. The following is not meant as a defense of Qatar. It is meant to correct one particular thing that most reporting gets wrong. The part where it talks about 6500 migrant worker deaths over the decade of World Cup facility construction has a serious error. It fails to look at the death rate. Qatar has around 2 million migrant workers, and the 6500 deaths are all deaths of migrants in the country rather than just work related deaths. 6500 deaths over 10 years in a population of 2 million is a death rate of 32.5/100k/year. A death rate of 32.5/100k/year should raise questions, especially if we assume that migrant workers in Qatar skew younger, but the question should be why is it so low? For comparison the death rate for 15-24 year old males in the US is 100/100k/year, and for 25-34 year old males it is 177/100k/year. It's possible that Qatar's poor treatment of migrant workers does result in an unusually high job-related death rate but something else Qatar does results in an unusually low death rate when not at work with the net result being the overall death rate is low. In the US the top causes of death of young males are poisoning (which includes drug overdoses), suicide, automobile accidents, and homicide. Qatar is very anti-drug, with harsh penalties and almost no tolerance, giving them a drug death rate around 4% of the US drug death rate. They are also much more intolerant of drunk driving, which is a major contributor to automobile deaths in the US. In Qatar if there is any detectable alcohol in your blood after an accident you are considered to have been drunk driving. That threshold is so low that you would be considered drunk if you were in an accident in the morning and had one drink the night before. Also I'd expect that most migrant workers use some other form of transport most of the time. Their homicide rate is also very low. Are those enough to offset a high work-related death rate. I don't know. I should know because all of the articles I've seen talking about migrant worker deaths in Qatar should have looked into this.
- madaxe_again 2y ago
  Or the absolutely rampant corruption. Their entire way of doing business is to lie, cheat and steal, and then murder anyone who objects or tries to report on it. Bluntly, I hope nobody comes to their aid when oil ends and their economies inevitably collapse - they can go back to bashing each other on the heads with rocks in the desert, and stop destroying the whole damned planet for a quick buck. Unfortunately, this is the outcome when you turn tribal hunter-gatherers into billionaires overnight. The scum always rises to the top in a society built on dominance and violence.
smashah 2y ago
[flagged]
- radicalbyte 2y ago
  It's not Biden, it's part of the 90% of American policy which will never change no matter who the President is.
  - smashah 2y ago
    True. Well if Americans aren't in control over their government then nothing in the world will get better.
- 0dayz 2y ago
  No these tyrants survive because of realpolitik. And Joe Biden has been the first openly hostile/critical president of KSA, while Trump said he didn't know who murdered the American citizen Jamal khashoggi[1] despite clear evidence and information about it, all due to him wanting the business with KSA to continue. [1]https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/02/26/why-intel-report-jamal-khashoggi-is-so-damning-trump/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/02/26/why-intel...
  - smashah 2y ago
    Actually Biden is worse on Saudi than Trump. Mainly because when Trump was in power the democrats and media would keep pressure on Trump. Whereas now, as a genocide is happening the media isn't providing as much pressure as it would of Trump was doing it. Also no need to regurgitate old irrelevant news, the complete 180 from Biden is the biggest slap in the face for people who were fighting for gender/human/civil rights. Also, Biden is yet to go after Kushner for that $2bn bribe/corruption payment. Realpolitik is a meme used to excuse bad behaviour.
    - 0dayz 2y ago
      Sorry but, this is just flailing your arms around hoping to hit something, Trump didn't care one bit what the opposition nor the media said about him, and maybe just maybe the media isn't as critical of Biden because he isn't as divisive as Trump was. And what genocide would that be? >Also, Biden is yet to go after Kushner for that $2bn bribe/corruption payment First of all not Biden's job to prosecute anyone and secondly they are trying to investigate him but Republicans are the ones trying to stall it[1] >Realpolitik is a meme used to excuse bad behaviour. The only excuse is people that say this, are unfortunately the ones who reject reality and substitute ot for their own. [1]https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacharyfolk/2024/03/21/jared-kushners-2-billion-investment-from-saudi-arabia-what-to-know-after-republicans-delay-subpoena/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacharyfolk/2024/03/21/jared-ku...
oliviabenson 2y ago
We are complicit (if not responsible). Accepted practice isn’t an excuse for indifference but criticising your own country isn’t a free pass to criticise the culture of others without challenging our culpability. If we sincerely want to help the citizens of these countries that we believe to be oppressed, we have options that we choose not to take. We could offer cultural asylum, give people a route to access our cultural ideals through immigration. We don’t, though, because we only believe in human rights when it’s convenient. You, as an individual, may do your best to contribute to the betterment of the world, but when talking about society vs. society, you’re glossing over far too many of our ills while ignoring the positives of the others. Freedom of religion, individualism, capitalism, they aren’t “good” or “right” they’re just… different. The western individualism (seen most prominently in the U.S.) is not the majority culture, to many, even those who are just as “free” as any American, western cultural ideals are a step backward. The way you perceive Islam is not the way it’s perceived by Muslims in Muslim majority countries, it is not an oppression put upon them by religious zealots, it’s a community that they participate in with a deep sense of pride and duty. For every Muslim in a Muslim-majority country who wants to break from their religion, there’s an unsuccessful American struggling to survive, desperate to break free from the lonely American pursuit of individual success. You can hate public executions, flogging, discrimination based on gender and sexuality, and you should, I do, but don’t compare societies. We are not better, just different.
- adzm 2y ago
  > You can hate public executions, flogging, discrimination based on gender and sexuality, and you should, I do, but don’t compare societies. We are not better, just different. You are literally comparing societies. I really don't understand what your point is.
- Y_Y 2y ago
  Who said anything about America? There are aspects of society in the Middle East that are different and bad. You don't have to be a moral absolutist to prefer that people not be stoned for adultery. And you can't assume that Muslims on average have a "deep sense of pride and duty" about the way their society is run. Sure some do, but they're not aliens with some higher form of existence, they're humans just like you and usually just worry about their day-to-day and believe a lot of things because that's what everyone around them seems to believe, just like Americans who like Protestantism and capitalism.
ctrw 2y ago
Let's not gloss over the fact that we in the west do the same. Only we hide the slaves in sweatshops so our sensibilities aren't triggered. It is after all much easier to change hearts and minds in a democracy.
- axlee 2y ago
  > Let's not gloss over the fact that we in the west do the same. Only we hide the slaves in sweatshops so our sensibilities aren't triggered. Totally: Norway and Saudi Arabia are exactly the same in terms of humanism, it's just a matter of optics, right?
  - spacecadet 2y ago
    Sure. Norwegians are people too, capable of evil. Thinking you are special? Thats a good starting point.
    - ethanbond 2y ago
      And as we all know, capable of == actually doing
      - spacecadet 2y ago
        Yeesh. History says otherwise.
  - flir 2y ago
    No UK supermarket will guarantee their supply chain for prawns (shrimp) is slavery-free. This in no way mitigates anybody else's issues, but that's an issue that I, personally, wish we could solve (and when we're done with that, maybe we can tackle the calorie laundering that goes on in that industry). I think the problem is that in a globalised economy, a local issue quickly becomes an everybody issue. Am I less responsible, as a consumer, because the injury happens a long way away?
    - 2y ago

satvikpendem 2y ago

Not to mention literal modern day slavery where they bring in South Asians on the promise of better pay, then take away their passports and pay them pennies.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
atlasunshrugged 2y ago
Increasingly seems like they're coming from East Africa too, although it appears it may be at the behest of the government in some cases. https://africanarguments.org/2024/03/go-gulf-is-ethiopia-sacrificing-youth-workers-to-balance-economy/ https://africanarguments.org/2024/03/go-gulf-is-ethiopia-sac...
pas 2y ago
How Qatar built the stadiums for the World Cup? Well, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMqLDhl8PXw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMqLDhl8PXw
- tzs 2y ago
  Disclaimer: Qatar is a terrible place when it comes to treatment of migrant workers. The following is not meant as a defense of Qatar. It is meant to correct one particular thing that most reporting gets wrong. The part where it talks about 6500 migrant worker deaths over the decade of World Cup facility construction has a serious error. It fails to look at the death rate. Qatar has around 2 million migrant workers, and the 6500 deaths are all deaths of migrants in the country rather than just work related deaths. 6500 deaths over 10 years in a population of 2 million is a death rate of 32.5/100k/year. A death rate of 32.5/100k/year should raise questions, especially if we assume that migrant workers in Qatar skew younger, but the question should be why is it so low? For comparison the death rate for 15-24 year old males in the US is 100/100k/year, and for 25-34 year old males it is 177/100k/year. It's possible that Qatar's poor treatment of migrant workers does result in an unusually high job-related death rate but something else Qatar does results in an unusually low death rate when not at work with the net result being the overall death rate is low. In the US the top causes of death of young males are poisoning (which includes drug overdoses), suicide, automobile accidents, and homicide. Qatar is very anti-drug, with harsh penalties and almost no tolerance, giving them a drug death rate around 4% of the US drug death rate. They are also much more intolerant of drunk driving, which is a major contributor to automobile deaths in the US. In Qatar if there is any detectable alcohol in your blood after an accident you are considered to have been drunk driving. That threshold is so low that you would be considered drunk if you were in an accident in the morning and had one drink the night before. Also I'd expect that most migrant workers use some other form of transport most of the time. Their homicide rate is also very low. Are those enough to offset a high work-related death rate. I don't know. I should know because all of the articles I've seen talking about migrant worker deaths in Qatar should have looked into this.
madaxe_again 2y ago
Or the absolutely rampant corruption. Their entire way of doing business is to lie, cheat and steal, and then murder anyone who objects or tries to report on it. Bluntly, I hope nobody comes to their aid when oil ends and their economies inevitably collapse - they can go back to bashing each other on the heads with rocks in the desert, and stop destroying the whole damned planet for a quick buck. Unfortunately, this is the outcome when you turn tribal hunter-gatherers into billionaires overnight. The scum always rises to the top in a society built on dominance and violence.

smashah 2y ago

[flagged]

radicalbyte 2y ago
It's not Biden, it's part of the 90% of American policy which will never change no matter who the President is.
- smashah 2y ago
  True. Well if Americans aren't in control over their government then nothing in the world will get better.
0dayz 2y ago
No these tyrants survive because of realpolitik. And Joe Biden has been the first openly hostile/critical president of KSA, while Trump said he didn't know who murdered the American citizen Jamal khashoggi[1] despite clear evidence and information about it, all due to him wanting the business with KSA to continue. [1]https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/02/26/why-intel-report-jamal-khashoggi-is-so-damning-trump/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/02/26/why-intel...
- smashah 2y ago
  Actually Biden is worse on Saudi than Trump. Mainly because when Trump was in power the democrats and media would keep pressure on Trump. Whereas now, as a genocide is happening the media isn't providing as much pressure as it would of Trump was doing it. Also no need to regurgitate old irrelevant news, the complete 180 from Biden is the biggest slap in the face for people who were fighting for gender/human/civil rights. Also, Biden is yet to go after Kushner for that $2bn bribe/corruption payment. Realpolitik is a meme used to excuse bad behaviour.
  - 0dayz 2y ago
    Sorry but, this is just flailing your arms around hoping to hit something, Trump didn't care one bit what the opposition nor the media said about him, and maybe just maybe the media isn't as critical of Biden because he isn't as divisive as Trump was. And what genocide would that be? >Also, Biden is yet to go after Kushner for that $2bn bribe/corruption payment First of all not Biden's job to prosecute anyone and secondly they are trying to investigate him but Republicans are the ones trying to stall it[1] >Realpolitik is a meme used to excuse bad behaviour. The only excuse is people that say this, are unfortunately the ones who reject reality and substitute ot for their own. [1]https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacharyfolk/2024/03/21/jared-kushners-2-billion-investment-from-saudi-arabia-what-to-know-after-republicans-delay-subpoena/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacharyfolk/2024/03/21/jared-ku...

oliviabenson 2y ago

We are complicit (if not responsible). Accepted practice isn’t an excuse for indifference but criticising your own country isn’t a free pass to criticise the culture of others without challenging our culpability. If we sincerely want to help the citizens of these countries that we believe to be oppressed, we have options that we choose not to take. We could offer cultural asylum, give people a route to access our cultural ideals through immigration. We don’t, though, because we only believe in human rights when it’s convenient. You, as an individual, may do your best to contribute to the betterment of the world, but when talking about society vs. society, you’re glossing over far too many of our ills while ignoring the positives of the others. Freedom of religion, individualism, capitalism, they aren’t “good” or “right” they’re just… different. The western individualism (seen most prominently in the U.S.) is not the majority culture, to many, even those who are just as “free” as any American, western cultural ideals are a step backward. The way you perceive Islam is not the way it’s perceived by Muslims in Muslim majority countries, it is not an oppression put upon them by religious zealots, it’s a community that they participate in with a deep sense of pride and duty. For every Muslim in a Muslim-majority country who wants to break from their religion, there’s an unsuccessful American struggling to survive, desperate to break free from the lonely American pursuit of individual success. You can hate public executions, flogging, discrimination based on gender and sexuality, and you should, I do, but don’t compare societies. We are not better, just different.

adzm 2y ago
> You can hate public executions, flogging, discrimination based on gender and sexuality, and you should, I do, but don’t compare societies. We are not better, just different. You are literally comparing societies. I really don't understand what your point is.
Y_Y 2y ago
Who said anything about America? There are aspects of society in the Middle East that are different and bad. You don't have to be a moral absolutist to prefer that people not be stoned for adultery. And you can't assume that Muslims on average have a "deep sense of pride and duty" about the way their society is run. Sure some do, but they're not aliens with some higher form of existence, they're humans just like you and usually just worry about their day-to-day and believe a lot of things because that's what everyone around them seems to believe, just like Americans who like Protestantism and capitalism.

ctrw 2y ago

Let's not gloss over the fact that we in the west do the same. Only we hide the slaves in sweatshops so our sensibilities aren't triggered. It is after all much easier to change hearts and minds in a democracy.

axlee 2y ago
> Let's not gloss over the fact that we in the west do the same. Only we hide the slaves in sweatshops so our sensibilities aren't triggered. Totally: Norway and Saudi Arabia are exactly the same in terms of humanism, it's just a matter of optics, right?
- spacecadet 2y ago
  Sure. Norwegians are people too, capable of evil. Thinking you are special? Thats a good starting point.
  - ethanbond 2y ago
    And as we all know, capable of == actually doing
    - spacecadet 2y ago
      Yeesh. History says otherwise.
- flir 2y ago
  No UK supermarket will guarantee their supply chain for prawns (shrimp) is slavery-free. This in no way mitigates anybody else's issues, but that's an issue that I, personally, wish we could solve (and when we're done with that, maybe we can tackle the calorie laundering that goes on in that industry). I think the problem is that in a globalised economy, a local issue quickly becomes an everybody issue. Am I less responsible, as a consumer, because the injury happens a long way away?
  - 2y ago