7 ms·

By buying up peoples' debt, and clearing their credit history, then they are free to run up yet more debt. I really don't care if people don't pay off onerous

By buying up peoples' debt, and clearing their credit history, then they are free to run up yet more debt. I really don't care if people don't pay off onerous debts. And, I could care less about credit ratings which are total bunk anyways -- I've seen people's dogs get credit card applications. I don't think it is ethical to mortgage your great grandchildren. I think it was the Mayans that used to wiped out all debts every 52 years. I really feel that it would be beneficial to once again make usury illegal. What is the purpose of doing this? Other than giving away your money to creditors, what is the benefit? As long as the debt was not onerous, I could see benefit in paying off peoples' homes if it was about to be foreclosed, and they had no means to continue making payments.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
smsm42 14y ago
You mean making charging interest illegal at all - so nobody can buy anything on credit and nobody does any lending? I think it makes sense except for a small thing where it would kill all modern economy, all retal sales, all manufacturing and pretty much all business which runs on credit everywhere. But as long as you're fine with trading wampums and playing with couple of sticks and a pinecone instead of your new shiny iPhone, it looks like a good suggestion. Or maybe you mean only banning charging "excessive" rates - when the real rates that are not excessive but proper are set by the Central Committee? As we all know how well do all the Central Committees in managing economic matters, you can imagine what that would lead to.
- ThomasGokey 14y ago
  In most societies there have been some form of "release valve" to keep everyone from ending up in permanent debt. Without such release valves everyone would end up as slaves to one person (or a very small group of people). When this happens you get a very unstable social order and it usually results in some form of a revolution. In many societies this release valve has taken the form of a jubilee or large scale debt forgiveness at set intervals of time. This did two things: First it released people from debt bondage. Second, it forced lenders to lend responsibly. If they could not realistically foresee the debt being repaid before the next Jubilee they wouldn't make the loan. We've seen modern day Jubilees when it comes to 3rd world debt. We've also seen national Jubilees in Iceland and Saudi Arabia recently within the last year. In our society bankruptcy is supposed to serve this function. Unfortunately congress rewrote the bankruptcy laws in 2005 at the behest of the credit card companies (it was a lobbyist for Visa who actually wrote the law!) and the big banks. Under the new law it's much more difficult to get one's debts discharged and almost impossible to get student loans discharged. This legislation was literally bad for 99.9% of all Americans. The fact that it got passed is one more bit of evidence that the 99% don't really have representation in our current government. I think a Jubilee of some form would be an excellent development.
  - smsm42 14y ago
    > In most societies there have been some form of "release valve" to keep everyone from ending up in permanent debt. This is called "bankruptcy". AFAIK US has bankruptcy - both business and personal. > Under the new law it's much more difficult to get one's debts discharged and almost impossible to get student loans discharged. Getting loans discharged is supposed to be difficult. If it were easy, nobody would pay them and there would be no credit market. As for student loans, what did you expect when you demanded unlimited lending at fixed interest? That banks would lend out all that money, take all that risk - and then allow people to just tell "oh, nevermind, I'm not really gonna pay this"? How that business is supposed to work then? The non-dischargeable debt is a direct consequence of the fixed rate (meaning, no ability to risk-adjust) and broad availability (meaning, no ability to reduce risk). It's either that or complete nationalization (read, global bailout) of all that debt. Arithmetics is a dismal science, you can't have 2+2 equal more than 4, however you try. If somebody took the money, the money have to come from somewhere. If you allow people to take money and not repay it, this money have to come from somewhere. > I think a Jubilee of some form would be an excellent development. I agree. I can't wait for such law - imagine, I wouldn't have to pay my mortgage and those pesky credit card bills - I'd just have to throw all mails from the banks and credit cards companies to the garbage and wait for the Jubilee. And then go buy another house and more stuff on my freshly renewed credit. In fact, I don't see why I would need to work at all - I'd just come into the store, flash my credit card (no need to even run it through the terminal - nobody would pay it anyway, so why bother?), take whatever I want and walk away. The Jubilee would take care of the rest. I think it's a great idea, indeed.
    - maxerickson 14y ago
      If you schedule the first jubilee 50 years in the future, you neatly sidestep most of the sarcastic rejoinders. And then people with money to loan out can factor the coming jubilee into their credit decisions.
      - smsm42 14y ago
        Right, because everybody knows 50 years will never come, so nobody would think to take advantage of it on 48-th and 49-th year. Or do you mean it will always be 50 years in the future - like communism in the Soviet Union? Then it makes total sense. > And then people with money to loan out can factor the coming jubilee into their credit decisions. Can you venture a guess what that decision would be? If you have money and you know you debtor will be able to refuse to return your money in, say, 2 years - how willing you would be to lend it out? Now also consider that collection can take multiple years - and consider when credit markets would completely shut down? 5 years before the Jubilee? 10 years? Will the banks also be allowed to refuse to pay interest on deposits in Jubilee - or if they are not, where the money to pay interest will come from if everybody would be defaulting on their loans at once? In fact, will the banks be allowed to just refuse to pay out the deposits at all - since term deposit is nothing more than a loan you give to the bank? And if not, where those deposits are coming from since these money are already given out as loans and forgiven on Jubilee?
scarmig 14y ago
Not just the Mayans. The Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Chinese, medieval Christians... all of those civilizations would periodically wipe all debt away. If you have heard about Jubilee years, in large part they involved all debts being forgiven. See the truly excellent book Debt by David Graeber for a very analytical take on debt and how our modern understanding of it varies greatly from how it was originally conceived.
- anamax 14y ago
  > If you have heard about Jubilee years, in large part they involved all debts being forgiven. Why would I loan you any money if I anticipate a "Jubilee" year?
  - scarmig 14y ago
    Because the idea that "the only reason to lend money is to make more money off of interest" is a modern innovation and very much out of line with how people have thought historically. It's interesting to think about how much contemporary civilization has convinced us that certain things are universal absolutes when in fact they are fairly odd cultural tics in the broad view of history. Seriously, if that question interests you, check out the book I mentioned. Debt has always existed, but it has meant a very different thing to the 95% of people who have ever been born than the concept you or I grew up with.
    - anamax 14y ago
      > Because the idea that "the only reason to lend money is to make more money off of interest" is a modern innovation and very much out of line with how people have thought historically. Jubilee isn't about interest, it's about principle. If you're not going to pay me back, it's a gift, not a loan. I'm pretty sure that "pre-moderns" understood the difference. In fact, the whole idea of Jubilee assumes understanding of the difference.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

smsm42 14y ago

You mean making charging interest illegal at all - so nobody can buy anything on credit and nobody does any lending? I think it makes sense except for a small thing where it would kill all modern economy, all retal sales, all manufacturing and pretty much all business which runs on credit everywhere. But as long as you're fine with trading wampums and playing with couple of sticks and a pinecone instead of your new shiny iPhone, it looks like a good suggestion. Or maybe you mean only banning charging "excessive" rates - when the real rates that are not excessive but proper are set by the Central Committee? As we all know how well do all the Central Committees in managing economic matters, you can imagine what that would lead to.

ThomasGokey 14y ago
In most societies there have been some form of "release valve" to keep everyone from ending up in permanent debt. Without such release valves everyone would end up as slaves to one person (or a very small group of people). When this happens you get a very unstable social order and it usually results in some form of a revolution. In many societies this release valve has taken the form of a jubilee or large scale debt forgiveness at set intervals of time. This did two things: First it released people from debt bondage. Second, it forced lenders to lend responsibly. If they could not realistically foresee the debt being repaid before the next Jubilee they wouldn't make the loan. We've seen modern day Jubilees when it comes to 3rd world debt. We've also seen national Jubilees in Iceland and Saudi Arabia recently within the last year. In our society bankruptcy is supposed to serve this function. Unfortunately congress rewrote the bankruptcy laws in 2005 at the behest of the credit card companies (it was a lobbyist for Visa who actually wrote the law!) and the big banks. Under the new law it's much more difficult to get one's debts discharged and almost impossible to get student loans discharged. This legislation was literally bad for 99.9% of all Americans. The fact that it got passed is one more bit of evidence that the 99% don't really have representation in our current government. I think a Jubilee of some form would be an excellent development.
- smsm42 14y ago
  > In most societies there have been some form of "release valve" to keep everyone from ending up in permanent debt. This is called "bankruptcy". AFAIK US has bankruptcy - both business and personal. > Under the new law it's much more difficult to get one's debts discharged and almost impossible to get student loans discharged. Getting loans discharged is supposed to be difficult. If it were easy, nobody would pay them and there would be no credit market. As for student loans, what did you expect when you demanded unlimited lending at fixed interest? That banks would lend out all that money, take all that risk - and then allow people to just tell "oh, nevermind, I'm not really gonna pay this"? How that business is supposed to work then? The non-dischargeable debt is a direct consequence of the fixed rate (meaning, no ability to risk-adjust) and broad availability (meaning, no ability to reduce risk). It's either that or complete nationalization (read, global bailout) of all that debt. Arithmetics is a dismal science, you can't have 2+2 equal more than 4, however you try. If somebody took the money, the money have to come from somewhere. If you allow people to take money and not repay it, this money have to come from somewhere. > I think a Jubilee of some form would be an excellent development. I agree. I can't wait for such law - imagine, I wouldn't have to pay my mortgage and those pesky credit card bills - I'd just have to throw all mails from the banks and credit cards companies to the garbage and wait for the Jubilee. And then go buy another house and more stuff on my freshly renewed credit. In fact, I don't see why I would need to work at all - I'd just come into the store, flash my credit card (no need to even run it through the terminal - nobody would pay it anyway, so why bother?), take whatever I want and walk away. The Jubilee would take care of the rest. I think it's a great idea, indeed.
  - maxerickson 14y ago
    If you schedule the first jubilee 50 years in the future, you neatly sidestep most of the sarcastic rejoinders. And then people with money to loan out can factor the coming jubilee into their credit decisions.
    - smsm42 14y ago
      Right, because everybody knows 50 years will never come, so nobody would think to take advantage of it on 48-th and 49-th year. Or do you mean it will always be 50 years in the future - like communism in the Soviet Union? Then it makes total sense. > And then people with money to loan out can factor the coming jubilee into their credit decisions. Can you venture a guess what that decision would be? If you have money and you know you debtor will be able to refuse to return your money in, say, 2 years - how willing you would be to lend it out? Now also consider that collection can take multiple years - and consider when credit markets would completely shut down? 5 years before the Jubilee? 10 years? Will the banks also be allowed to refuse to pay interest on deposits in Jubilee - or if they are not, where the money to pay interest will come from if everybody would be defaulting on their loans at once? In fact, will the banks be allowed to just refuse to pay out the deposits at all - since term deposit is nothing more than a loan you give to the bank? And if not, where those deposits are coming from since these money are already given out as loans and forgiven on Jubilee?

scarmig 14y ago

Not just the Mayans. The Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Chinese, medieval Christians... all of those civilizations would periodically wipe all debt away. If you have heard about Jubilee years, in large part they involved all debts being forgiven. See the truly excellent book Debt by David Graeber for a very analytical take on debt and how our modern understanding of it varies greatly from how it was originally conceived.

anamax 14y ago
> If you have heard about Jubilee years, in large part they involved all debts being forgiven. Why would I loan you any money if I anticipate a "Jubilee" year?
- scarmig 14y ago
  Because the idea that "the only reason to lend money is to make more money off of interest" is a modern innovation and very much out of line with how people have thought historically. It's interesting to think about how much contemporary civilization has convinced us that certain things are universal absolutes when in fact they are fairly odd cultural tics in the broad view of history. Seriously, if that question interests you, check out the book I mentioned. Debt has always existed, but it has meant a very different thing to the 95% of people who have ever been born than the concept you or I grew up with.
  - anamax 14y ago
    > Because the idea that "the only reason to lend money is to make more money off of interest" is a modern innovation and very much out of line with how people have thought historically. Jubilee isn't about interest, it's about principle. If you're not going to pay me back, it's a gift, not a loan. I'm pretty sure that "pre-moderns" understood the difference. In fact, the whole idea of Jubilee assumes understanding of the difference.