6 ms·

Interestingly, the Mona Lisa wasn't considered to be anything special until after it was stolen. It was the headlines and the frenzy surrounding the news that c

by brink 3y ago

Interestingly, the Mona Lisa wasn't considered to be anything special until after it was stolen. It was the headlines and the frenzy surrounding the news that caused it to be so popular once it was found. https://www.npr.org/2011/07/30/138800110/the-theft-that-made-the-mona-lisa-a-masterpiece https://www.npr.org/2011/07/30/138800110/the-theft-that-made...

m3kw9 3y ago
Rarity is like an illusion
- kibwen 3y ago
  Not even rarity, because every painting is basically unique and non-fungible (modulo replicas). Instead, it's memes that make unique things more valuable than other unique things.
  - bruce511 3y ago
    Paintings are unique the way people are unique. Each one is different but there are a LOT of them. Some are objectively in another league, but 99% of it can be swapped out for something that appeals to you more personally. Memes don't make a Rembrandt valuable, but equally the Rembrandt name matters more than the picture. So more "branding" than meme. I subscribe to the notion that if it takes an expert to tell the difference between a fake or real Rembrandt, then (value aside) you have a Rembrandt. Or Rembrandt-quality painting.
    - kibwen 3y ago
      > So more "branding" than meme. Agreed, but it's worth examining how branding is itself memetic. Why is Rembrandt associated with value? Because of a perpetuating idea that Rembrandt was highly skilled, and thus his paintings are higher quality. But why do we say that Rembrandt was highly skilled? Because of a perpetuating idea that tells us what skill at classical painting should look like, and then a perpetuating idea that tells us that Rembrandt was an exemplar of that artificially-defined category.
      - cubefox 3y ago
        It seems more likely that Rembrandt defied some of the standard art style at the time and is remembered for his innovation. For example, his paintings look quite realistic but tend to exhibit unusually dramatic lighting. Perhaps nobody did that before him, or not with the same quality, or only in a small number of artworks.
  - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
    I like the concept of Mana - https://medium.com/luminasticity/art-as-a-tool-for-storing-mana-69d90f1a014b https://medium.com/luminasticity/art-as-a-tool-for-storing-m... (the link might not be to your taste as it is sort of criticism but written in a fictional universe) "One of the primary properties of anything with Mana is a feeling of uniqueness. That one has never encountered something like this before, and therefore it is important. The uniqueness of the thing is a property that pulls you in to focus more closely, to attempt to understand more closely why the thing is unique."
  - sumtechguy 3y ago
    It is like having a Bob Ross painting. Which is surprisingly actually decently difficult to do as he kept most of them even though he made thousands of them. They are mostly in a Bob Ross museum. But 100 years from now? Without that show and the people who grew up watching it? Will they be worth anything?
bdjsiqoocwk 3y ago
Those of us that don't know anything about art still don't consider it anything special. I wouldn't even put it on a wall at home. Looks crusty, for one.
- vsnf 3y ago
  Meanwhile, there are works of immeasurably lesser technical talent hanging on my walls that I spend much time admiring. Good art is good art, and it's best to not let anyone tell you what that means or doesn't mean.
  - onionisafruit 3y ago
    My favorite painting is by my wife’s grandmother’s childhood neighbor who only showed one painting in her life (circa 1963). I’m sure that an art critic would tear it to pieces, but to me it’s beautiful. I feel lucky to have it in my house. It’s starting to deteriorate and I need to find somebody to restore it, but I don’t want to entrust it to anybody I can afford.
    - Projectiboga 3y ago
      Make it a hobby project. First to figure out is what is it on and then the paint type. From there you can research how to maybe restore and to preserve and slow or stop the degradation. Find books use AnnasArchive if they aren't in your library after researching books about restoration and preservation.
      - onionisafruit 3y ago
        You don't know how unhandy I am. I would not be able to DIY this without making it worse, but today I contacted a restorer to at least find out what it will take. I assume that it will be multiple thousands of dollars, but have never even verified that assumption.
  - bch 3y ago
    I think it was the director of the Art Gallery of Ontario talking about “art” in an interview who said (roughly) “Art is the match - your mind is the cigar”.
keiferski 3y ago
It was still a painting by one of the most renowned artists and individuals of all time. Maybe it wasn’t the mega-hit that it is today, but “not anything special” isn’t accurate either.
e4325f 3y ago
Yes it was. It's a masterpiece by one of the greatest artists of all time. There's a Great Art Explained episode [1] on it that's worth a watch. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElWG0_kjy_Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElWG0_kjy_Y
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  There are other works by Da Vinci in other museums too but again the Mona Lisa had become uniquely and superlatively special over his other works, and indeed, all other works of art.
  - cubefox 3y ago
    This reminds me of Stanisław Lem's literature theory / theory of everything monograph The Philosophy of Chance [1]. One of the many claims defended in the book was that which works ultimately become famous art depends to a great degree on random chance. The Mona Lisa is an unusually clear example. It doesn't even stand out among da Vinci's other paintings. Another example is music. Whether a piece becomes famous, isn't just influenced by whether it sound good. It also has to hit a specific nerve in the current zeitgeist. If the best House track of all time came out tomorrow, nobody would notice, because the genre isn't popular anymore. The artwork has to be at the right place at the right time, or it will be forgotten by history. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophy_of_Chance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophy_of_Chance
  - pluc 3y ago
    Eh, I think it caught on because it's simple to describe. Da Vinci's other pieces in the Uffizi are a lot more elaborate and can't be summed up by "portrait with a smile". People like simple.
  - Smoosh 3y ago
    Yes, I prefer "Woman with a ferret[1]" myself. A better work in almost every way. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_with_an_Ermine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_with_an_Ermine

by brink 3y ago

m3kw9 3y ago

Rarity is like an illusion

kibwen 3y ago
Not even rarity, because every painting is basically unique and non-fungible (modulo replicas). Instead, it's memes that make unique things more valuable than other unique things.
- bruce511 3y ago
  Paintings are unique the way people are unique. Each one is different but there are a LOT of them. Some are objectively in another league, but 99% of it can be swapped out for something that appeals to you more personally. Memes don't make a Rembrandt valuable, but equally the Rembrandt name matters more than the picture. So more "branding" than meme. I subscribe to the notion that if it takes an expert to tell the difference between a fake or real Rembrandt, then (value aside) you have a Rembrandt. Or Rembrandt-quality painting.
  - kibwen 3y ago
    > So more "branding" than meme. Agreed, but it's worth examining how branding is itself memetic. Why is Rembrandt associated with value? Because of a perpetuating idea that Rembrandt was highly skilled, and thus his paintings are higher quality. But why do we say that Rembrandt was highly skilled? Because of a perpetuating idea that tells us what skill at classical painting should look like, and then a perpetuating idea that tells us that Rembrandt was an exemplar of that artificially-defined category.
    - cubefox 3y ago
      It seems more likely that Rembrandt defied some of the standard art style at the time and is remembered for his innovation. For example, his paintings look quite realistic but tend to exhibit unusually dramatic lighting. Perhaps nobody did that before him, or not with the same quality, or only in a small number of artworks.
- bryanrasmussen 3y ago
  I like the concept of Mana - https://medium.com/luminasticity/art-as-a-tool-for-storing-mana-69d90f1a014b https://medium.com/luminasticity/art-as-a-tool-for-storing-m... (the link might not be to your taste as it is sort of criticism but written in a fictional universe) "One of the primary properties of anything with Mana is a feeling of uniqueness. That one has never encountered something like this before, and therefore it is important. The uniqueness of the thing is a property that pulls you in to focus more closely, to attempt to understand more closely why the thing is unique."
- sumtechguy 3y ago
  It is like having a Bob Ross painting. Which is surprisingly actually decently difficult to do as he kept most of them even though he made thousands of them. They are mostly in a Bob Ross museum. But 100 years from now? Without that show and the people who grew up watching it? Will they be worth anything?

bdjsiqoocwk 3y ago

Those of us that don't know anything about art still don't consider it anything special. I wouldn't even put it on a wall at home. Looks crusty, for one.

vsnf 3y ago
Meanwhile, there are works of immeasurably lesser technical talent hanging on my walls that I spend much time admiring. Good art is good art, and it's best to not let anyone tell you what that means or doesn't mean.
- onionisafruit 3y ago
  My favorite painting is by my wife’s grandmother’s childhood neighbor who only showed one painting in her life (circa 1963). I’m sure that an art critic would tear it to pieces, but to me it’s beautiful. I feel lucky to have it in my house. It’s starting to deteriorate and I need to find somebody to restore it, but I don’t want to entrust it to anybody I can afford.
  - Projectiboga 3y ago
    Make it a hobby project. First to figure out is what is it on and then the paint type. From there you can research how to maybe restore and to preserve and slow or stop the degradation. Find books use AnnasArchive if they aren't in your library after researching books about restoration and preservation.
    - onionisafruit 3y ago
      You don't know how unhandy I am. I would not be able to DIY this without making it worse, but today I contacted a restorer to at least find out what it will take. I assume that it will be multiple thousands of dollars, but have never even verified that assumption.
- bch 3y ago
  I think it was the director of the Art Gallery of Ontario talking about “art” in an interview who said (roughly) “Art is the match - your mind is the cigar”.

keiferski 3y ago

It was still a painting by one of the most renowned artists and individuals of all time. Maybe it wasn’t the mega-hit that it is today, but “not anything special” isn’t accurate either.

e4325f 3y ago

Yes it was. It's a masterpiece by one of the greatest artists of all time. There's a Great Art Explained episode [1] on it that's worth a watch. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElWG0_kjy_Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElWG0_kjy_Y

satvikpendem 3y ago
There are other works by Da Vinci in other museums too but again the Mona Lisa had become uniquely and superlatively special over his other works, and indeed, all other works of art.
- cubefox 3y ago
  This reminds me of Stanisław Lem's literature theory / theory of everything monograph The Philosophy of Chance [1]. One of the many claims defended in the book was that which works ultimately become famous art depends to a great degree on random chance. The Mona Lisa is an unusually clear example. It doesn't even stand out among da Vinci's other paintings. Another example is music. Whether a piece becomes famous, isn't just influenced by whether it sound good. It also has to hit a specific nerve in the current zeitgeist. If the best House track of all time came out tomorrow, nobody would notice, because the genre isn't popular anymore. The artwork has to be at the right place at the right time, or it will be forgotten by history. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophy_of_Chance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophy_of_Chance
- pluc 3y ago
  Eh, I think it caught on because it's simple to describe. Da Vinci's other pieces in the Uffizi are a lot more elaborate and can't be summed up by "portrait with a smile". People like simple.
- Smoosh 3y ago
  Yes, I prefer "Woman with a ferret[1]" myself. A better work in almost every way. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_with_an_Ermine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_with_an_Ermine