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I think you're being perfectly clear, but I also think you're missing my point. "If you already have the music collection" is the deal breaker. If I want to lis

by bhaney 3y ago

I think you're being perfectly clear, but I also think you're missing my point. "If you already have the music collection" is the deal breaker. If I want to listen to my own music library, there has always been plenty of solutions for that. Long before any modern music streaming service existed, I was making streamable radio stations of my personal music library available with software like IceCast. But these days I don't want to listen just to music I've already discovered myself, or even just to music that me and a collection of friends have discovered ourselves. I want exposure to essentially all music, whether I or anyone I know has ever heard of it before. I don't seem to be able to get that with services like FunkWhale, and I'm not willing to go back to limiting my music exposure to only songs that me or a select few others have personally discovered and added to our libraries on our own. Mass discovery is the killer feature, while being able to listen to music I own (in whatever presentation) is unimpressive table stakes. And I want that discovery to be happening while I'm listening to music normally, not have to set aside time to discover new music before adding it to my library so my normal "music listening" sessions can pull from it.

rglullis 3y ago
> I don't seem to be able to get that with services like FunkWhale The problem is not with Funkwhale. The problem is with archaic IP laws and our collective unwillingness to fight for copyright reform. If you don't mind straight out piracy, there is a ton of solutions that could give you a virtually infinite music collection and just get the algorithms to select the songs for you.
- bhaney 3y ago
  > The problem is not with Funkwhale. The problem is with archaic IP laws Yeah, as I mentioned a couple posts up: "I recognize that for copyright reasons at the very least, projects like funkwhale can't possibly provide this functionality." But at the end of the day it doesn't matter what the source of the problem is or whether or not it can be reasonably fixed. The problem exists, and it makes FunkWhale a non-starter for people like me, as unfair as that is. > If you don't mind straight out piracy I don't at all. Pretty much the entirety of those hundreds of gigs of flacs I mentioned earlier are pirated. > there is a ton of solutions that could give you a virtually infinite music collection and just get the algorithms to select the songs for you The thing about getting the algorithms to select the songs for me is that if I'm doing that, the service has already bundled a very convenient way to actually play those songs as well, so I don't have any reason to maintain my own library. I'm paying for the service primarily for its algorithm, and the service just happens to also cover the trivial case of actually listening to the music it recommends, so I don't really need another service to handle that part. Even if I did have a reason for wanting to separate out the discovery from the playback, I don't think it would be possible to do without significant friction, and I've found that any suggestion to the contrary usually just ignores or minimizes any use cases that the suggester doesn't personally value.
  - rglullis 3y ago
    If you don't mind the piracy and you are willing to pay for a service that can make the music selection for you, one could just host a Funkwhale instance in a jurisdiction that is not aligned with the MPAA and feed it directly with a seedbox. I'd also love to see something like that, but I honestly think we are in a very small group that of people that would support this.
    - bhaney 3y ago
      That sounds fine by me and is essentially what I used to do, but I don't see how it's any less effort or any better of an experience than just continuing to subscribe to the well established and polished services that are already widely used. Like, why would I go through the effort of setting up and paying for an illegal service that provides me most of the functionality I already have, but needs more maintenance and is almost certainly rougher around the edges and less well integrated than the corporate services I already use?
      - rglullis 3y ago
        Because by "paying to the existing corporate services" you are effectively contributing to their continued dominance and control over the business model?
        bhaney 3y ago
        If ending my Apple Music subscription was going to shift the future to be one where I can conveniently self-host or access a similar but open non-corporate implementation of a global music discovery service with a good an unencumbered recommendation algorithm and player, I would happily do so. Unfortunately I'm forced to live in reality, so I know those things aren't connected at all and I'll just be degrading my own experience for no reason.
        rglullis 3y ago
        > I know those things aren't connected at all Of course they are connected. You may be right that Apple would be largely unaffected by a small group of people dropping them, but you also need to look at the other side of the market. If a small-but-meaningful minority puts a strong signal that they refuse to pay for corporate-controlled services but do want to pay for "independent" alternatives, then you have the right incentive for some player to show up and satisfy this demand. You'll be "degrading your experience" only in the beginning, but with continued support the alternatives would be surpass the incumbent. It could be seen as an investment. It's not that different from the "Linux on the desktop" case. Yes, using Linux over Windows was "difficult" in 2008-2012, but if it were not for the people willing to drop Windows then we would never had companies like Canonical and Valve willing to make a bet on it. And Linux might have ~4% of the desktop share, but you'd have a hard time to argue that Windows is objectively "better" and today it's more likely that people will migrating from Windows to Linux than the opposite direction.

by bhaney 3y ago

rglullis 3y ago

> I don't seem to be able to get that with services like FunkWhale The problem is not with Funkwhale. The problem is with archaic IP laws and our collective unwillingness to fight for copyright reform. If you don't mind straight out piracy, there is a ton of solutions that could give you a virtually infinite music collection and just get the algorithms to select the songs for you.

bhaney 3y ago
> The problem is not with Funkwhale. The problem is with archaic IP laws Yeah, as I mentioned a couple posts up: "I recognize that for copyright reasons at the very least, projects like funkwhale can't possibly provide this functionality." But at the end of the day it doesn't matter what the source of the problem is or whether or not it can be reasonably fixed. The problem exists, and it makes FunkWhale a non-starter for people like me, as unfair as that is. > If you don't mind straight out piracy I don't at all. Pretty much the entirety of those hundreds of gigs of flacs I mentioned earlier are pirated. > there is a ton of solutions that could give you a virtually infinite music collection and just get the algorithms to select the songs for you The thing about getting the algorithms to select the songs for me is that if I'm doing that, the service has already bundled a very convenient way to actually play those songs as well, so I don't have any reason to maintain my own library. I'm paying for the service primarily for its algorithm, and the service just happens to also cover the trivial case of actually listening to the music it recommends, so I don't really need another service to handle that part. Even if I did have a reason for wanting to separate out the discovery from the playback, I don't think it would be possible to do without significant friction, and I've found that any suggestion to the contrary usually just ignores or minimizes any use cases that the suggester doesn't personally value.
- rglullis 3y ago
  If you don't mind the piracy and you are willing to pay for a service that can make the music selection for you, one could just host a Funkwhale instance in a jurisdiction that is not aligned with the MPAA and feed it directly with a seedbox. I'd also love to see something like that, but I honestly think we are in a very small group that of people that would support this.
  - bhaney 3y ago
    That sounds fine by me and is essentially what I used to do, but I don't see how it's any less effort or any better of an experience than just continuing to subscribe to the well established and polished services that are already widely used. Like, why would I go through the effort of setting up and paying for an illegal service that provides me most of the functionality I already have, but needs more maintenance and is almost certainly rougher around the edges and less well integrated than the corporate services I already use?
    - rglullis 3y ago
      Because by "paying to the existing corporate services" you are effectively contributing to their continued dominance and control over the business model?
      - bhaney 3y ago
        If ending my Apple Music subscription was going to shift the future to be one where I can conveniently self-host or access a similar but open non-corporate implementation of a global music discovery service with a good an unencumbered recommendation algorithm and player, I would happily do so. Unfortunately I'm forced to live in reality, so I know those things aren't connected at all and I'll just be degrading my own experience for no reason.
        rglullis 3y ago
        > I know those things aren't connected at all Of course they are connected. You may be right that Apple would be largely unaffected by a small group of people dropping them, but you also need to look at the other side of the market. If a small-but-meaningful minority puts a strong signal that they refuse to pay for corporate-controlled services but do want to pay for "independent" alternatives, then you have the right incentive for some player to show up and satisfy this demand. You'll be "degrading your experience" only in the beginning, but with continued support the alternatives would be surpass the incumbent. It could be seen as an investment. It's not that different from the "Linux on the desktop" case. Yes, using Linux over Windows was "difficult" in 2008-2012, but if it were not for the people willing to drop Windows then we would never had companies like Canonical and Valve willing to make a bet on it. And Linux might have ~4% of the desktop share, but you'd have a hard time to argue that Windows is objectively "better" and today it's more likely that people will migrating from Windows to Linux than the opposite direction.