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Assange is a creep and a megalomaniac who was working closely with Russian intelligence, and with other creeps like Israel Shamir and Roger Stone. Whether he s

by nwah1 3y ago

Assange is a creep and a megalomaniac who was working closely with Russian intelligence, and with other creeps like Israel Shamir and Roger Stone. Whether he should be in prison or not, and whether the sexual abuse claims against him are accurate, is a separate matter which I'm not commenting on. But I object to anyone framing him as a hero. Snowden is a coward who fled to Russia at Assange's behest, and while I cannot necessarily blame him for that, it is clear that he is now a citizen of a much less freedom-loving country, and he wouldn't dare do anything such as criticize their invasion of Ukraine. Very human, but not very heroic.

mkoryak 3y ago
> Snowden is a coward Really? I don't know many cowards that do such risky things.
- nwah1 3y ago
  A mix of cowardice and bravery in a human way. A hero doesn't slink away to a dictatorship to save his skin. A normal person would do this. Most of us, maybe. But should we be celebrating that? And it should also make us question who benefitted from what they were doing, and maybe realize that these people were geopolitical players batting for a particular not-so-nice team rather than independent heroes for freedom.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    A hero doesn’t martyr themselves for the satisfaction of randos. He fled a corrupt nation state that wouldn’t provide justice for disclosing the US and UK governments violating citizen rights at scale. These operations were revealed by previous whistle blowers who followed the proper procedures for reporting illegal activity. They testified in congress about it. Their claims were dismissed by the government and instead, budgets for large scale data storage and analysis facilities were approved to handle the data the NSA claimed they did not collect. The US could do the right thing. It is a choice. But other choices are made, as is tradition. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/06/edward-snowden-nsa-mass-surveillance/674315/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/06/edward-sno... https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2023/07/05/how-the-snowden-leaks-changed-government-surveillance https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2023/07/05/how-the-snowden-leak... https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/07/02/national-intelligence-director-apologizes-for-lying-to-congress https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/07/02/national-int... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clapper#Testimony_to_Congress_on_NSA_surveillance,_2013 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clapper#Testimony_to_Con... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM https://privacyinternational.org/learn/five-eyes https://privacyinternational.org/learn/five-eyes
    - mopsi 3y ago
      > He fled a corrupt nation state ... to a far worse place where he'll get executed as soon as he steps out of the line. He has become someone who says only what his handlers allow him to say. A hero doesn't prostitute himself out to a hostile foreign country.
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        Russia provides him freedom he would not have if he had stayed in the US, and has provided him that freedom for over a decade. You're blaming Snowden for the US government's catastrophic governance failures. Maybe blame the abuser/criminal instead of the victim?
        mopsi 3y ago
        He has no freedom in Russia either. In ironic twist of fate, his is now a mouthpiece for one of the most oppressive governments on the planet. There's plenty of whistleblowers who haven't made such deal with the devil and haven't sold their soul.
        unaindz 3y ago
        And most, at least those from US or similar similar corrupt states like Australia are rotting in jail or facing prosecution.
blackeyeblitzar 3y ago
These Russian intelligence smears seem unsubstantiated but also irrelevant. Let's say they are both explicitly Russian agents. Why does it matter? Do you have any thoughts on what they revealed? Does that offend you as a citizen of this world? Do you think the secretive mass surveillance programs or activities in diplomatic cables were acceptable? Unless you think the revealed information is factually false, I don't think the source matters. But clearly the aggressive reaction from the US government, news media, and others suggests that everything revealed was real and accurate. As for the "creep" comment - this is a vague labeling that isn't possible to debate. You either agree with it based off a subjective assessment or you don't. But if you're referring to the rape accusations made against Assange, those charges were ultimately dropped, because "the evidence has weakened considerably" (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50473792 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50473792). The entire saga of those accusations seems suspicious and feels like a tactic to extradite him. Regardless, all of this is a distraction. The things revealed by Wikileaks and Snowden are far more important and significant to society than this minutia. Somehow detractors always want to point at lesser issues around Assange or Snowden instead of addressing the many elephants in the room.
- nwah1 3y ago
  I was not referring to the rape accusations, I was referring to his connections to creeps and the fact that he was colluding with Russia to influence US politics, and lying. Trying to boost the Seth Rich conspiracy theory despite knowing the truth that Russia was behind the DNC hack. Colluding with the sociopath Roger Stone towards these same ends. Israel Shamir is a major creep, who works with people like the Russian fascist Dugin, and has close and repeated contacts with the Russian government. The point is that these are political players with creepy political goals.

by nwah1 3y ago

mkoryak 3y ago

> Snowden is a coward Really? I don't know many cowards that do such risky things.

nwah1 3y ago
A mix of cowardice and bravery in a human way. A hero doesn't slink away to a dictatorship to save his skin. A normal person would do this. Most of us, maybe. But should we be celebrating that? And it should also make us question who benefitted from what they were doing, and maybe realize that these people were geopolitical players batting for a particular not-so-nice team rather than independent heroes for freedom.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  A hero doesn’t martyr themselves for the satisfaction of randos. He fled a corrupt nation state that wouldn’t provide justice for disclosing the US and UK governments violating citizen rights at scale. These operations were revealed by previous whistle blowers who followed the proper procedures for reporting illegal activity. They testified in congress about it. Their claims were dismissed by the government and instead, budgets for large scale data storage and analysis facilities were approved to handle the data the NSA claimed they did not collect. The US could do the right thing. It is a choice. But other choices are made, as is tradition. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/06/edward-snowden-nsa-mass-surveillance/674315/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/06/edward-sno... https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2023/07/05/how-the-snowden-leaks-changed-government-surveillance https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2023/07/05/how-the-snowden-leak... https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/07/02/national-intelligence-director-apologizes-for-lying-to-congress https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/07/02/national-int... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clapper#Testimony_to_Congress_on_NSA_surveillance,_2013 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clapper#Testimony_to_Con... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM https://privacyinternational.org/learn/five-eyes https://privacyinternational.org/learn/five-eyes
  - mopsi 3y ago
    > He fled a corrupt nation state ... to a far worse place where he'll get executed as soon as he steps out of the line. He has become someone who says only what his handlers allow him to say. A hero doesn't prostitute himself out to a hostile foreign country.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      Russia provides him freedom he would not have if he had stayed in the US, and has provided him that freedom for over a decade. You're blaming Snowden for the US government's catastrophic governance failures. Maybe blame the abuser/criminal instead of the victim?
      - mopsi 3y ago
        He has no freedom in Russia either. In ironic twist of fate, his is now a mouthpiece for one of the most oppressive governments on the planet. There's plenty of whistleblowers who haven't made such deal with the devil and haven't sold their soul.
        unaindz 3y ago
        And most, at least those from US or similar similar corrupt states like Australia are rotting in jail or facing prosecution.

blackeyeblitzar 3y ago

These Russian intelligence smears seem unsubstantiated but also irrelevant. Let's say they are both explicitly Russian agents. Why does it matter? Do you have any thoughts on what they revealed? Does that offend you as a citizen of this world? Do you think the secretive mass surveillance programs or activities in diplomatic cables were acceptable? Unless you think the revealed information is factually false, I don't think the source matters. But clearly the aggressive reaction from the US government, news media, and others suggests that everything revealed was real and accurate. As for the "creep" comment - this is a vague labeling that isn't possible to debate. You either agree with it based off a subjective assessment or you don't. But if you're referring to the rape accusations made against Assange, those charges were ultimately dropped, because "the evidence has weakened considerably" (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50473792 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50473792). The entire saga of those accusations seems suspicious and feels like a tactic to extradite him. Regardless, all of this is a distraction. The things revealed by Wikileaks and Snowden are far more important and significant to society than this minutia. Somehow detractors always want to point at lesser issues around Assange or Snowden instead of addressing the many elephants in the room.

nwah1 3y ago
I was not referring to the rape accusations, I was referring to his connections to creeps and the fact that he was colluding with Russia to influence US politics, and lying. Trying to boost the Seth Rich conspiracy theory despite knowing the truth that Russia was behind the DNC hack. Colluding with the sociopath Roger Stone towards these same ends. Israel Shamir is a major creep, who works with people like the Russian fascist Dugin, and has close and repeated contacts with the Russian government. The point is that these are political players with creepy political goals.