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>I don't really see how you can disagree with that. I don't really see how you can agree with that. What is the fundamental difference between a civillian and

by Ray20 3y ago

>I don't really see how you can disagree with that. I don't really see how you can agree with that. What is the fundamental difference between a civillian and a professional politician? >basically just saying "Ukraine should surrender to Russia cuz it'll save lives". I think most Ukrainians would agree with that. There's a reason, why Zelensky banned men from leaving the country, why he conduct forced conscription and why he canceled the elections. I mean, it seems like Musk voices a rather popular point of view

tombert 3y ago
> I don't really see how you can agree with that. What is the fundamental difference between a civillian and a professional politician? The United States is a representational republic. We elect people to make decisions in regards to war effort, or delegate that to certain agencies. It's not the job of civilians to take this into our own hands. When civilian does try and intervene in a war effort directly, like for example turning off communication infrastructure, that's weird. I think it's worth investigating. There's no "difference" from, like, a DNA level if you're trying to get super-pedantic, but a professional politician is someone that we've elected to handle these kinds of situations. It's not the job of the world's richest human to arbitrarily insert themselves into it. > I mean, it seems like Musk voices a rather popular point of view I don't know enough about the mentalities of the Ukrainian people to say one way or another. I just thought it was weird that he started trying to intervene in the conflict and basically went public with a "compromise" that basically said to "negotiate with Russia and give them what they want".
- Ray20 3y ago
  > The United States is a representational republic. > make decisions in regards to war effort Why is that matter? USA - is not a part of the conflict > It's not the job of civilians to take this into our own hands It is literally the job of civilians. In this war both sides forcefully conscripting civilians to conduct the war with their own hands > When civilian does try and intervene in a war effort directly, like for example turning off communication infrastructure, that's weird So you are saying that job of civilians - is to die for what the cause big politicians seems fitting them to die for, but not to try to stop this war? > but a professional politician is someone that we've elected to handle these kinds of situations. They obviously failed > I don't know enough about the mentalities of the Ukrainian people to say one way or another. Banned men's leaving, forcefull conscription and cancelled elections speaks for themselves
  - tombert 3y ago
    > Why is that matter? USA - is not a part of the conflict Yes but Elon Musk is a US citizen, which is why I brought it up. > It is literally the job of civilians. In this war both sides forcefully conscripting civilians to conduct the war with their own hands I'm against forced conscriptions in any capacity regardless. That doesn't justify Elon injecting himself into the conflict. > So you are saying that job of civilians - is to die for what the cause big politicians seems fitting them to die for, but not to try to stop this war? Elon isn't at any risk of dying from the Ukraine conflict, so it's not an apples to apples comparison, but I generally don't think civilians should be the ones to stop or start wars. > They obviously failed It's a complicated situation, so I don't really know how you define "failure". Moreover, there's no reason to think that Elon knows better. > Banned men's leaving, forcefull conscription and cancelled elections speaks for themselves I agree that all those things are bad, but I have no idea why it's Elon's job to stop it.
ben_w 3y ago
> I don't really see how you can agree with that. What is the fundamental difference between a civillian and a professional politician? All of the things that matter. Authority. Advisors. Indemnity. An army to back them up. An economy to back up the army. If you want to draw equivalence between individuals and nations due to the things Musk has control over, then even as the richest person in the world, his entire operation is somewhere around Somalia or Malawi. Opinions are very divided with regard to how much Musk actually listens to his advisors, but there's also no reason for him to have hired any of the people who might be relevant to this kind of question (what with them being busy advising the actual governments). > I think most Ukrainians would agree with that. There's a reason, why Zelensky banned men from leaving the country, why he conduct forced conscription and why he canceled the elections. I mean, it seems like Musk voices a rather popular point of view Those things are not evidence either way. Churchill did most of that (leaving the country was hard, unaffordable for most, and dangerous so not actually banned), yet very popular. Furthermore, actual polling says that most don't even want to negotiate, and even of those who are willing to, the number willing to accept even their current territorial control as the cost of peace is tiny: https://theconversation.com/what-latest-polling-says-about-the-mood-in-ukraine-and-the-desire-to-remain-optimistic-amid-the-suffering-221559 https://theconversation.com/what-latest-polling-says-about-t...
- Ray20 3y ago
  >actual polling says that most don't even want to negotiate There is no actual polling. You just can't have polls when for "wrong" answers people may be imprisoned, sent to war or killed. This polls have nothing to do with reality, they only show what the government considering as the "wrong answers". So we can only judge about people's opinion by indirect evidence. And banned leaving, forced conscription and canceled elections - are pretty strong evidence
  - ben_w 3y ago
    I gave you a citation, I suggest you read it. The actual survey details were linked from it, and it fully falsifies your claim. https://www.ndi.org/sites/default/files/November%202023%20wartime%20survey_public_ENG.pptx.pdf https://www.ndi.org/sites/default/files/November%202023%20wa... They trust the armed forces and Zelensky without having to trust the government, see slide 26. > And banned leaving, forced conscription and canceled elections - are pretty strong evidence Churchill demonstrated otherwise. Also, you keep saying "forced" conscriptions like conscription isn't forced by definition. And also like it's not really common when nations fear or are at war, which is why Israel and Finland also have it: • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Finland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Finland • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Israel and why the US had it from 1940 until 1973: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_Sta...

by Ray20 3y ago

tombert 3y ago

> I don't really see how you can agree with that. What is the fundamental difference between a civillian and a professional politician? The United States is a representational republic. We elect people to make decisions in regards to war effort, or delegate that to certain agencies. It's not the job of civilians to take this into our own hands. When civilian does try and intervene in a war effort directly, like for example turning off communication infrastructure, that's weird. I think it's worth investigating. There's no "difference" from, like, a DNA level if you're trying to get super-pedantic, but a professional politician is someone that we've elected to handle these kinds of situations. It's not the job of the world's richest human to arbitrarily insert themselves into it. > I mean, it seems like Musk voices a rather popular point of view I don't know enough about the mentalities of the Ukrainian people to say one way or another. I just thought it was weird that he started trying to intervene in the conflict and basically went public with a "compromise" that basically said to "negotiate with Russia and give them what they want".

Ray20 3y ago
> The United States is a representational republic. > make decisions in regards to war effort Why is that matter? USA - is not a part of the conflict > It's not the job of civilians to take this into our own hands It is literally the job of civilians. In this war both sides forcefully conscripting civilians to conduct the war with their own hands > When civilian does try and intervene in a war effort directly, like for example turning off communication infrastructure, that's weird So you are saying that job of civilians - is to die for what the cause big politicians seems fitting them to die for, but not to try to stop this war? > but a professional politician is someone that we've elected to handle these kinds of situations. They obviously failed > I don't know enough about the mentalities of the Ukrainian people to say one way or another. Banned men's leaving, forcefull conscription and cancelled elections speaks for themselves
- tombert 3y ago
  > Why is that matter? USA - is not a part of the conflict Yes but Elon Musk is a US citizen, which is why I brought it up. > It is literally the job of civilians. In this war both sides forcefully conscripting civilians to conduct the war with their own hands I'm against forced conscriptions in any capacity regardless. That doesn't justify Elon injecting himself into the conflict. > So you are saying that job of civilians - is to die for what the cause big politicians seems fitting them to die for, but not to try to stop this war? Elon isn't at any risk of dying from the Ukraine conflict, so it's not an apples to apples comparison, but I generally don't think civilians should be the ones to stop or start wars. > They obviously failed It's a complicated situation, so I don't really know how you define "failure". Moreover, there's no reason to think that Elon knows better. > Banned men's leaving, forcefull conscription and cancelled elections speaks for themselves I agree that all those things are bad, but I have no idea why it's Elon's job to stop it.

ben_w 3y ago

> I don't really see how you can agree with that. What is the fundamental difference between a civillian and a professional politician? All of the things that matter. Authority. Advisors. Indemnity. An army to back them up. An economy to back up the army. If you want to draw equivalence between individuals and nations due to the things Musk has control over, then even as the richest person in the world, his entire operation is somewhere around Somalia or Malawi. Opinions are very divided with regard to how much Musk actually listens to his advisors, but there's also no reason for him to have hired any of the people who might be relevant to this kind of question (what with them being busy advising the actual governments). > I think most Ukrainians would agree with that. There's a reason, why Zelensky banned men from leaving the country, why he conduct forced conscription and why he canceled the elections. I mean, it seems like Musk voices a rather popular point of view Those things are not evidence either way. Churchill did most of that (leaving the country was hard, unaffordable for most, and dangerous so not actually banned), yet very popular. Furthermore, actual polling says that most don't even want to negotiate, and even of those who are willing to, the number willing to accept even their current territorial control as the cost of peace is tiny: https://theconversation.com/what-latest-polling-says-about-the-mood-in-ukraine-and-the-desire-to-remain-optimistic-amid-the-suffering-221559 https://theconversation.com/what-latest-polling-says-about-t...

Ray20 3y ago
>actual polling says that most don't even want to negotiate There is no actual polling. You just can't have polls when for "wrong" answers people may be imprisoned, sent to war or killed. This polls have nothing to do with reality, they only show what the government considering as the "wrong answers". So we can only judge about people's opinion by indirect evidence. And banned leaving, forced conscription and canceled elections - are pretty strong evidence
- ben_w 3y ago
  I gave you a citation, I suggest you read it. The actual survey details were linked from it, and it fully falsifies your claim. https://www.ndi.org/sites/default/files/November%202023%20wartime%20survey_public_ENG.pptx.pdf https://www.ndi.org/sites/default/files/November%202023%20wa... They trust the armed forces and Zelensky without having to trust the government, see slide 26. > And banned leaving, forced conscription and canceled elections - are pretty strong evidence Churchill demonstrated otherwise. Also, you keep saying "forced" conscriptions like conscription isn't forced by definition. And also like it's not really common when nations fear or are at war, which is why Israel and Finland also have it: • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Finland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Finland • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Israel and why the US had it from 1940 until 1973: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_Sta...