8 ms·

I emailed them. I live I'm SF. This is the sake, solved, problem we have in the machine tool world (milling machines, lathes, etc). Similar to old keyboards,

I emailed them. I live I'm SF. This is the sake, solved, problem we have in the machine tool world (milling machines, lathes, etc). Similar to old keyboards, you can just buy and use a floppy emulator. They emailed me back, they said that the floppy thing makes a good headline but is really just the tip of the iceberg. It's really the whole system that's like this at every layer, it needs replacing they say.

boringg 3y ago
Protected from hackers though!
- jmb99 3y ago
  Unless said hacker has a big magnet.
Hrnrurj 3y ago
Here is 2017 article from NY to get an idea. https://www.businessinsider.com/nyc-mta-subway-delay-2017-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/nyc-mta-subway-delay-2017-6
akira2501 3y ago
> it needs replacing they say. It sounds like they let this problem fester until it has reached this existential end. They clamor for new technology, which they get, then they use the most risk adverse management strategy and never upgrade or change it, until it reaches this problem state. They either need significant third party help deploying and managing this system, or they should go back a few generations of technology and use the simplest possible system that meets their needs. Pen and paper should be considered if it can be made more efficient. I guess the people who work on public transit aren't interested in having the best public transit system available. They're only interested in keeping it running for as long as possible with zero changes or responsibility. This is why I'm strongly doubtful on public transportation in the US. Our bureaucracy can't handle it.
- arrosenberg 3y ago
  > I guess the people who work on public transit aren't interested in having the best public transit system available. They're only interested in keeping it running for as long as possible with zero changes or responsibility. Let me guess, you also think public servants are lazy, overpaid and unskilled? Comments like this belie how many people form opinions of public agencies without having any real experience with government. The problem is the public and the politicians - transit employees largely do the best they can with the resources and constraints they are given. In order to succeed transit needs municipalities and states to: pay more taxes; accept that transit won't generate a profit, but does generate non-monetary public value; and gather their resolve to deal with NIMBYs.
  - akira2501 3y ago
    > Let me guess, you also think public servants are lazy, overpaid and unskilled? Do you not see this article as evidence of this fact? If you walked into any other business reliant on "floppy disks" just to take your money, would you praise their practices and efficiency? > Comments like this belie how many people form opinions of public agencies without having any real experience with government. I form opinions because I try to use their services and am disappointed and often disgusted. Do you really think "experience with public transport" is particularly hard to come by? That this is all too esoteric for the "common man" to opine on? Please... > transit employees largely do the best they can with the resources and constraints they are given Perhaps they should earn those resources competitively instead of being given them? Otherwise, this seems like a perennial chicken and the egg problem that swallows tax dollars with no worthwhile result.
    - arrosenberg 3y ago
      I don't think the article is a reflection on efficacy of the public agency. If their budget for new software is $0, how exactly are they supposed to upgrade it? It's certainly possible that the agency has been utter shit for 25 years, but this article doesn't give the information to conclude that. > Perhaps they should earn those resources competitively instead of being given them? How? They're a public agency. There is no profit motive - if the public wants nicer stuff, they need to pay for it. That includes both the software costs and the higher salary costs to hire people capable of those types of projects. Again, you come off as someone running their mouth with no actual experience interacting with public agencies. It's very frustrating to know how to fix a problem without being given the resources or permission to do so, which is often the case in transit. Add to that most transit agencies have a tiny budget for IT, and I'm not sure how you expect this to get solved without a big public push.
JohnTHaller 3y ago
Same thought I had immediately when I read the story. Worth fixing that failure point at least.
jandrese 3y ago
This was my thought. Floppy emulators are a dime a dozen thanks to the retrocomputing community. Emulators for the custom boards full of discrete logic, opaque ROM chips, PLAs, and so on from long dead companies are going to be a much bigger challenge. If they had good schematics for all of the parts it might be possible to keep the the system running for a long time with a couple of smart EEs who are comfortable with the scope and soldering iron, but eventually they're going to run out of some obscure part and be up a creek. Or maybe they could replace entire boards with home designed versions condense all of the old logic down to one chip and a handful of support components and start in-place upgrading without a total system revamp. Still an expensive process, and one that requires some hard to find engineers on staff, but theoretically spreads out the upgrade process over many years. It also loses out on functional improvement opportunities while your system is made up of a hodgepodge of old and new hardware.
- inferiorhuman 3y ago
  SelTrac was designed to use commercial off the shelf (COTS) parts so there shouldn't be much in terms of needing custom chips, etc. The problem is that Alcatel (now Thales) basically doesn't support any of this (and hasn't for a long time). The computers in question are, I believe, just thin clients.
- asdefghyk 3y ago
  RE "....Still an expensive process, ....." Actually probably NOT , if all the $$ saved over the last 25 years , and also considering the many millions to get a completely new replacement system....
  - jandrese 3y ago
    The expense will be in "certifying" the machines for use with passenger traffic. Nobody wants personal liability, so we wrap ourselves in knots trying to pass responsibility on to someone, anybody, else.
andbberger 3y ago
the state-of-good-repair grift will continue until the morale improves! SelTrac is fine. and if it ever actually breaks (dubious) they can fall back to block signaling which comfortably handles more trains than muni is capable of running. the MBTA does just fine with it on the green line, and when the MBTA is making you look incompetent you've got to question where it all went wrong. this is the agency that brought you the central fucking subway, a $300M sewer project masquerading as some red paint on van ness, that picked the already-mostly-grade-separated M Ocean over the N Judah to subway-ify and that is incapable of flicking the traffic preemption switch on the rest of the T to the on position without a decades long pedestrian detection LIDAR project for the unique in the world needs of san francisco.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
fdr 3y ago
A once a generation refresh seems okay in my book. The Breda trains that came in 1996 were being phased out about twenty years into their tenure, most generally seem to think that is about reasonable a time to do something like that. I don’t see software related regimes as inherently that different. Since I experienced 5.25 inch floppy disk era...and even the occasional bernoulli disk...we could simply say: the system had its run, replacement is reasonable. A lot of stuff had changed since then, and not just in storage media.
- jtbayly 3y ago
  Wait, you’re suggesting replacing trains because the computers inside them are old?
  - asveikau 3y ago
    I think they're just saying parts should be periodically replaced across the board on that timeframe, and using the fact that the trains are being swapped out as an example. The Breda trains are still running some percentage of the fleet however. I rode in one today.
    - fdr 3y ago
      That’s right. System refreshes are a fact of life, especially if one is parsimonious in using what works until obsolescence. There are downsides of doing things that way, but I don’t see it inherently more defective than other approaches, such as some kind of continuous refresh that has a conceit of keeping a system “modern” in perpetuity.
      - thsksbd 3y ago
        But twenty years for a train seems very low. My daily driver is 12 years old, I thrash it every morning and never gives me problems. I live in the snowbelt. By comparison a train is vastly over-engineered and has an electric drive train. Sure stuff will need replacing but a train should last 40 years at least
SllX 3y ago
What are they still running OS/2? (they probably are…)
kazinator 3y ago
> like this at every layer It may feel emotionally like this at every layer, but the layers that are not floppy discs are completely different from floppy discs. Other than electrolytics caps (easy replacement items), old electronics is reliable. Moving parts need service; that's life. > needs replacement Not believable without detailed justification. In the present article, someone is literally quoted as everything working just fine.
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  I agree with you. Good luck getting the city to see it that way. If you'd like help, let me know.
yonran 3y ago
The real scope of the project is a mind-boggling $600 million to track the light rail trains inside and outside the tunnels and to control the trains inside the tunnels. Divided by the 250 light rail vehicles (apparently does not include historic streetcars), it works out to $2.6 million per car. Plus $36M for consulting (2023-11-07 board presentation from the documents that I linked earlier https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/files/reports-and-documents/2023/11/11-7-23_mtab_item_11_train_control_upgrade_project_consultant_rfp_-_slide_presentation.pdf https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/files/reports-and-docume...).
- napierzaza 3y ago
  [dead]
asdefghyk 3y ago
The PC and the floppy disk should be running as a virtual machine. ( The Vm software and host OS and the hardware would all be current supported versions of course )
snvzz 3y ago
Hopefully once they finally look into replacing the system, seL4 will be selected.
nostrademons 3y ago
That doesn't result in bigger budgets. If the goal of a manager is to increase their budget and hence scope of responsibility, any solution which doesn't result in a bigger budget isn't really a solution. Same reason it's going to cost a hundred million, yet a single indie game dev can write a train scheduling simulator by themselves.

boringg 3y ago

Protected from hackers though!

jmb99 3y ago
Unless said hacker has a big magnet.

Hrnrurj 3y ago

Here is 2017 article from NY to get an idea. https://www.businessinsider.com/nyc-mta-subway-delay-2017-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/nyc-mta-subway-delay-2017-6

akira2501 3y ago

> it needs replacing they say. It sounds like they let this problem fester until it has reached this existential end. They clamor for new technology, which they get, then they use the most risk adverse management strategy and never upgrade or change it, until it reaches this problem state. They either need significant third party help deploying and managing this system, or they should go back a few generations of technology and use the simplest possible system that meets their needs. Pen and paper should be considered if it can be made more efficient. I guess the people who work on public transit aren't interested in having the best public transit system available. They're only interested in keeping it running for as long as possible with zero changes or responsibility. This is why I'm strongly doubtful on public transportation in the US. Our bureaucracy can't handle it.

arrosenberg 3y ago
> I guess the people who work on public transit aren't interested in having the best public transit system available. They're only interested in keeping it running for as long as possible with zero changes or responsibility. Let me guess, you also think public servants are lazy, overpaid and unskilled? Comments like this belie how many people form opinions of public agencies without having any real experience with government. The problem is the public and the politicians - transit employees largely do the best they can with the resources and constraints they are given. In order to succeed transit needs municipalities and states to: pay more taxes; accept that transit won't generate a profit, but does generate non-monetary public value; and gather their resolve to deal with NIMBYs.
- akira2501 3y ago
  > Let me guess, you also think public servants are lazy, overpaid and unskilled? Do you not see this article as evidence of this fact? If you walked into any other business reliant on "floppy disks" just to take your money, would you praise their practices and efficiency? > Comments like this belie how many people form opinions of public agencies without having any real experience with government. I form opinions because I try to use their services and am disappointed and often disgusted. Do you really think "experience with public transport" is particularly hard to come by? That this is all too esoteric for the "common man" to opine on? Please... > transit employees largely do the best they can with the resources and constraints they are given Perhaps they should earn those resources competitively instead of being given them? Otherwise, this seems like a perennial chicken and the egg problem that swallows tax dollars with no worthwhile result.
  - arrosenberg 3y ago
    I don't think the article is a reflection on efficacy of the public agency. If their budget for new software is $0, how exactly are they supposed to upgrade it? It's certainly possible that the agency has been utter shit for 25 years, but this article doesn't give the information to conclude that. > Perhaps they should earn those resources competitively instead of being given them? How? They're a public agency. There is no profit motive - if the public wants nicer stuff, they need to pay for it. That includes both the software costs and the higher salary costs to hire people capable of those types of projects. Again, you come off as someone running their mouth with no actual experience interacting with public agencies. It's very frustrating to know how to fix a problem without being given the resources or permission to do so, which is often the case in transit. Add to that most transit agencies have a tiny budget for IT, and I'm not sure how you expect this to get solved without a big public push.

JohnTHaller 3y ago

Same thought I had immediately when I read the story. Worth fixing that failure point at least.

jandrese 3y ago

This was my thought. Floppy emulators are a dime a dozen thanks to the retrocomputing community. Emulators for the custom boards full of discrete logic, opaque ROM chips, PLAs, and so on from long dead companies are going to be a much bigger challenge. If they had good schematics for all of the parts it might be possible to keep the the system running for a long time with a couple of smart EEs who are comfortable with the scope and soldering iron, but eventually they're going to run out of some obscure part and be up a creek. Or maybe they could replace entire boards with home designed versions condense all of the old logic down to one chip and a handful of support components and start in-place upgrading without a total system revamp. Still an expensive process, and one that requires some hard to find engineers on staff, but theoretically spreads out the upgrade process over many years. It also loses out on functional improvement opportunities while your system is made up of a hodgepodge of old and new hardware.

inferiorhuman 3y ago
SelTrac was designed to use commercial off the shelf (COTS) parts so there shouldn't be much in terms of needing custom chips, etc. The problem is that Alcatel (now Thales) basically doesn't support any of this (and hasn't for a long time). The computers in question are, I believe, just thin clients.
asdefghyk 3y ago
RE "....Still an expensive process, ....." Actually probably NOT , if all the $$ saved over the last 25 years , and also considering the many millions to get a completely new replacement system....
- jandrese 3y ago
  The expense will be in "certifying" the machines for use with passenger traffic. Nobody wants personal liability, so we wrap ourselves in knots trying to pass responsibility on to someone, anybody, else.

andbberger 3y ago

the state-of-good-repair grift will continue until the morale improves! SelTrac is fine. and if it ever actually breaks (dubious) they can fall back to block signaling which comfortably handles more trains than muni is capable of running. the MBTA does just fine with it on the green line, and when the MBTA is making you look incompetent you've got to question where it all went wrong. this is the agency that brought you the central fucking subway, a $300M sewer project masquerading as some red paint on van ness, that picked the already-mostly-grade-separated M Ocean over the N Judah to subway-ify and that is incapable of flicking the traffic preemption switch on the rest of the T to the on position without a decades long pedestrian detection LIDAR project for the unique in the world needs of san francisco.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

fdr 3y ago

A once a generation refresh seems okay in my book. The Breda trains that came in 1996 were being phased out about twenty years into their tenure, most generally seem to think that is about reasonable a time to do something like that. I don’t see software related regimes as inherently that different. Since I experienced 5.25 inch floppy disk era...and even the occasional bernoulli disk...we could simply say: the system had its run, replacement is reasonable. A lot of stuff had changed since then, and not just in storage media.

jtbayly 3y ago
Wait, you’re suggesting replacing trains because the computers inside them are old?
- asveikau 3y ago
  I think they're just saying parts should be periodically replaced across the board on that timeframe, and using the fact that the trains are being swapped out as an example. The Breda trains are still running some percentage of the fleet however. I rode in one today.
  - fdr 3y ago
    That’s right. System refreshes are a fact of life, especially if one is parsimonious in using what works until obsolescence. There are downsides of doing things that way, but I don’t see it inherently more defective than other approaches, such as some kind of continuous refresh that has a conceit of keeping a system “modern” in perpetuity.
    - thsksbd 3y ago
      But twenty years for a train seems very low. My daily driver is 12 years old, I thrash it every morning and never gives me problems. I live in the snowbelt. By comparison a train is vastly over-engineered and has an electric drive train. Sure stuff will need replacing but a train should last 40 years at least

SllX 3y ago

What are they still running OS/2? (they probably are…)

kazinator 3y ago

> like this at every layer It may feel emotionally like this at every layer, but the layers that are not floppy discs are completely different from floppy discs. Other than electrolytics caps (easy replacement items), old electronics is reliable. Moving parts need service; that's life. > needs replacement Not believable without detailed justification. In the present article, someone is literally quoted as everything working just fine.

iancmceachern 3y ago
I agree with you. Good luck getting the city to see it that way. If you'd like help, let me know.

yonran 3y ago

The real scope of the project is a mind-boggling $600 million to track the light rail trains inside and outside the tunnels and to control the trains inside the tunnels. Divided by the 250 light rail vehicles (apparently does not include historic streetcars), it works out to $2.6 million per car. Plus $36M for consulting (2023-11-07 board presentation from the documents that I linked earlier https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/files/reports-and-documents/2023/11/11-7-23_mtab_item_11_train_control_upgrade_project_consultant_rfp_-_slide_presentation.pdf https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/files/reports-and-docume...).

napierzaza 3y ago
[dead]

asdefghyk 3y ago

The PC and the floppy disk should be running as a virtual machine. ( The Vm software and host OS and the hardware would all be current supported versions of course )

snvzz 3y ago

Hopefully once they finally look into replacing the system, seL4 will be selected.

nostrademons 3y ago

That doesn't result in bigger budgets. If the goal of a manager is to increase their budget and hence scope of responsibility, any solution which doesn't result in a bigger budget isn't really a solution. Same reason it's going to cost a hundred million, yet a single indie game dev can write a train scheduling simulator by themselves.