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"Nobody should be the gardener in a war. " But your Jiu-Jitsu won't help you much when bombs gonna fall on your head, so better keep a nice garden if you can.

by mikub 2y ago

"Nobody should be the gardener in a war. " But your Jiu-Jitsu won't help you much when bombs gonna fall on your head, so better keep a nice garden if you can. ;)

bee_rider 2y ago
Given what we’re seeing with drones nowadays, the martial arts with the most military applicability are probably hide and seek and hiding under the blanket.
thaumasiotes 2y ago
> Jiu-Jitsu Apropos of nothing much, where does that first I come from in "jiu-jitsu"? It's not present in the Japanese, but for some reason it appears in Portuguese even though the original vowel is a monophthong.
- QuercusMax 2y ago
  Found this article that has some info: https://unm.wsrjj.org/spelling.pdf https://unm.wsrjj.org/spelling.pdf
  - adrian_b 2y ago
    That article has some mistakes in its details. For instance the first article about ju-jutsu and judo that was written by Jigoro Kano and translated into English by T. Lindsay in 1888, has used the spelling "Jiujutsu", i.e. neither "jujutsu" (as written in this article) nor "jiujitsu". In Japanese kana, in the 19th century, before the spelling reform that happened after WWII, the spelling was "jiyuu-jiyutu". The Japanese spelling might have suggested the writing of an "i" after "j" in the Latin transcription. In the corresponding Latin alphabet spelling "jiu-jitsu", the reason why a "u" has been preserved from "jiyuu" but no "u" has been preserved from "jiyutu", is likely to have been because the first "u" is long, so it is pronounced clearly, while the second u is short, which in modern Japanese is pronounced without rounding the lips, so it does not sound like a "u". It also does not sound like a "i", because it is a back vowel, but English or French do not have this vowel, so they can render it only as either "u" or "i", and it appears that the choice has been random, because all variants are encountered in the old publications.
- Dwedit 2y ago
  There is no "Ju" in Japanese, it's Ji+yu. じゅ or ジュ.
  - adrian_b 2y ago
    The modern transcription rules distinguish between Latin alphabet "ju" (written with small "yu") and Latin alphabet "jiyu" (written with big "yu" in kana). So there exist both "ju" and "jiyu" and they are distinct. In "juu-jutsu" there are only "ju", there is no "jiyu" (the latter can appear only in compound words). Before WWII, in kana there was no distinction between "ju" and "jiyu" (there was no small "yu"), so you had to know that the word written as "jiyuujiyutu" must be pronounced "juujutsu", in the same way like you had to memorize many other differences between the old Japanese spelling and pronunciation (e.g. yahara => yawara, osahe => osae, kuwatu => katsu and so on).
    - thaumasiotes 2y ago
      You present old tu => new tsu as a difference in the Japanese spelling. Is it? I had the impression that "tsu" is just a western transcription, the reformed Japanese spelling is still "tu", and the sound sequence "tu" does not exist, being obligatorily "tsu". Isn't that why English words ending in -t or -d get transcribed into Japanese with a final vowel of -o rather than the -u that is used for other final consonants?
      - layer8 2y ago
        “Tsu” is the Hepburn romanization, “tu” is Kunrei-shiki (and the older Nihon-shiki). The latter is nominally the official standard Japanese romanization, though there is currently a proposal to change this to Hepburn, which in practice is much more commonly used. This is strictly about transliteration, not about pronunciation. The pronunciation has always been “tsu”. You are right about the transliteration of English words into kana.
        thaumasiotes 2y ago
        > The pronunciation has always been “tsu”. This seems unlikely. The pronunciation was tsu before WWII. But the organization of the syllabary strongly suggests that the pronunciation was once tu. I don't know to what degree the syllable 'tu' is viewed as impossible in Japanese as opposed to merely nonexistent. (Compare Mandarin, where (as in Japanese) there is no syllable /si/, but it's not especially difficult for Mandarin speakers to pronounce /si/.) I'd be interested if you knew.

by mikub 2y ago

"Nobody should be the gardener in a war. " But your Jiu-Jitsu won't help you much when bombs gonna fall on your head, so better keep a nice garden if you can. ;)

bee_rider 2y ago

Given what we’re seeing with drones nowadays, the martial arts with the most military applicability are probably hide and seek and hiding under the blanket.

thaumasiotes 2y ago

> Jiu-Jitsu Apropos of nothing much, where does that first I come from in "jiu-jitsu"? It's not present in the Japanese, but for some reason it appears in Portuguese even though the original vowel is a monophthong.

QuercusMax 2y ago
Found this article that has some info: https://unm.wsrjj.org/spelling.pdf https://unm.wsrjj.org/spelling.pdf
- adrian_b 2y ago
  That article has some mistakes in its details. For instance the first article about ju-jutsu and judo that was written by Jigoro Kano and translated into English by T. Lindsay in 1888, has used the spelling "Jiujutsu", i.e. neither "jujutsu" (as written in this article) nor "jiujitsu". In Japanese kana, in the 19th century, before the spelling reform that happened after WWII, the spelling was "jiyuu-jiyutu". The Japanese spelling might have suggested the writing of an "i" after "j" in the Latin transcription. In the corresponding Latin alphabet spelling "jiu-jitsu", the reason why a "u" has been preserved from "jiyuu" but no "u" has been preserved from "jiyutu", is likely to have been because the first "u" is long, so it is pronounced clearly, while the second u is short, which in modern Japanese is pronounced without rounding the lips, so it does not sound like a "u". It also does not sound like a "i", because it is a back vowel, but English or French do not have this vowel, so they can render it only as either "u" or "i", and it appears that the choice has been random, because all variants are encountered in the old publications.
Dwedit 2y ago
There is no "Ju" in Japanese, it's Ji+yu. じゅ or ジュ.
- adrian_b 2y ago
  The modern transcription rules distinguish between Latin alphabet "ju" (written with small "yu") and Latin alphabet "jiyu" (written with big "yu" in kana). So there exist both "ju" and "jiyu" and they are distinct. In "juu-jutsu" there are only "ju", there is no "jiyu" (the latter can appear only in compound words). Before WWII, in kana there was no distinction between "ju" and "jiyu" (there was no small "yu"), so you had to know that the word written as "jiyuujiyutu" must be pronounced "juujutsu", in the same way like you had to memorize many other differences between the old Japanese spelling and pronunciation (e.g. yahara => yawara, osahe => osae, kuwatu => katsu and so on).
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    You present old tu => new tsu as a difference in the Japanese spelling. Is it? I had the impression that "tsu" is just a western transcription, the reformed Japanese spelling is still "tu", and the sound sequence "tu" does not exist, being obligatorily "tsu". Isn't that why English words ending in -t or -d get transcribed into Japanese with a final vowel of -o rather than the -u that is used for other final consonants?
    - layer8 2y ago
      “Tsu” is the Hepburn romanization, “tu” is Kunrei-shiki (and the older Nihon-shiki). The latter is nominally the official standard Japanese romanization, though there is currently a proposal to change this to Hepburn, which in practice is much more commonly used. This is strictly about transliteration, not about pronunciation. The pronunciation has always been “tsu”. You are right about the transliteration of English words into kana.
      - thaumasiotes 2y ago
        > The pronunciation has always been “tsu”. This seems unlikely. The pronunciation was tsu before WWII. But the organization of the syllabary strongly suggests that the pronunciation was once tu. I don't know to what degree the syllable 'tu' is viewed as impossible in Japanese as opposed to merely nonexistent. (Compare Mandarin, where (as in Japanese) there is no syllable /si/, but it's not especially difficult for Mandarin speakers to pronounce /si/.) I'd be interested if you knew.