6 ms·

I agree that life drawing is of tremendous importance, but your characterization here disagrees with my experience: > [life drawing] forces you to reason about

by b450 2y ago

I agree that life drawing is of tremendous importance, but your characterization here disagrees with my experience: > [life drawing] forces you to reason about physical space and the structure of objects in ways that neither drawing from imagination nor drawing from a photo reference does. Now this may be because I am, at best, an intermediate artist, but in my experience, beginner drawing courses (rightly) focus on unlearning the natural tendency towards "symbol drawing". A bunch of beginner drawing exercises like (a) copying Picasso's Stravinsky portrait upside down, (b) overlaying a picture with a grid to copy it, (c) life drawing with various physical aids (holding out a pencil to "visually measure", drawing a scene visible through a cardboard frame) are all focused on learning to draw what you "really see" instead of what you think you see. To me, this early learning process involves learning _not_ to reason about what you see, but to instead simply copy what's in your "visual field". Instead of "oh, a nose is sort of a pyramid shape, so it should look like this", it's, "I see a darker value in that spot" (it just so happens to be the shadow cast under the nose, but you don't even need to recognize that). In my own drawing journey, I actually think my life drawing started getting much better once I started learning to draw from imagination, because the latter _does_ require that level of understanding - using perspective, simplifying forms into primitive shapes, types of shadows, planning where the darkest and lightest values in the image will be, and so on. In particular, since practicing illustration, I'm much more capable of sketching things that aren't posing, like the geese permanently milling around in front of my house - I can quickly copy a silhouette, and then use my knowledge to fill out what it should look like. I didn't really learn to do that in all my life drawing classes, because I could just fall back on what I was seeing.

chefandy 2y ago
I'm not an art educator, but I am a fairly recent graduate from art school, and am familiar with the curricula of other art programs-- and that's the perspective that I'm speaking from. YMMV of course. Reasoning about objects symbolically is very different than reasoning about the way real world space and forms present themselves in 2d. The "copy the portrait upside down" type of exercises are great for casual self-paced learners: they help break naive habits, get people excited because they see the composition and intent that other people created coming out in their work, there's built-in guard rails to make sure they don't stray too far, and the references are commonly available and therefore easy to get crit on online, or just evaluate it yourself... but I think they take up a lot of time for what you get out of them, and it's really easy for people to plateau taking that approach. I also went to culinary school some time ago and worked as a chef-- there's a similar split in culinary art. If someone told me they were sick of making boring weeknight dinners, then sure, finding and following fun recipes and maybe doing some creative experimentation is a good place to start, and surely some people that start that way end up really learning how to cook eventually. Exposure to variety is also helpful in developing aesthetic sophistication. But without deliberate guidance towards theory-focused information, most hit a hard plateau with that approach, and there's a good chance they'll stay there. If they'd read a beginner-friendly technique-focused book like Michael Ruhlman's "Ratio" instead of trawling recipe sites for aspirational dinners, they might have seen less improvement in the quality of their dinners for a week, but in a few weeks they'd be miles beyond the first cargo-culting cook because rather than knowing a handful of recipes that work, they'd know how they worked. If someone said they were looking to get into art, generally, then there's no way I'd recommend even touching still life for a while. If they're like "I want to learn oil painting on canvas" then I absolutely would. P.S. > Now this may be because I am, at best, an intermediate artist So you're probably a pretty competent artist. ;-) Genuinely mediocre artists talk about their capability like they're Van Eyck.
- sandspar 2y ago
  Interesting! A couple of years ago, I attempted to begin "learning to draw well" (technique focus). I did the first couple of lessons on the Watts Atelier online course and attended several life drawing sittings. It didn't stick, though! Do you have any recommendations for the initial phases of "learning to draw well"? I think I focused too much on rigor, too soon, and didn't give myself enough chances to sink my teeth into it with initial easy wins.
  - chefandy 2y ago
    Firstly, online learning is not for everybody. Seriously. Not having in-person accountability can be a huge problem for some people. Taking individual art lessons or drawing classes locally might be a good way to go. These skills aren't exceptionally rare and people who wield them aren't exceptionally well-paid for doing so. Secondly, not everybody learns at the same pace, and the course you're following might be too fast for you. Try doing each lesson twice or three times spread out over a few weeks. Some people need a little more reinforcement before it clicks, and they often wind up with better technical skills because they've made 3x the marks everyone else did to get to the same place, on the lesson plan. Thirdly, you might need more external support. One of the biggest benefits to drawing in a room full of other people drawing the same thing with a professor walking around was hearing when I was doing something well. As you surely know, after staring at a piece for however long, it's nearly impossible to view it objectively, and having someone else saying "hey you did a great job with this hatching there. Maybe you could do some of the line work around this object right here with the same approach." If you don't have that, consider posting in online communities (that aren't toxic as hell) or taking in-person classes. Fourthly, you might have the incredibly common streak of perfectionism you need to push through. It's psychologically hard to embark upon a task you know you don't have the skill to complete to your standards-- for some more than others. A really good way to push against this is to do a deliberately shitty version off it right off the bat. Messy crooked hairy lines, shitty shapes... just shoot to get the overall proportions approximately right and then maybe the negative space around the edges or something like that. A good quality vine charcoal which is super easily erasable, or a few colored pencils you can use for different preliminary stages in your sketching can really help you out. Counterintuitively, you can also try moving in the opposite direction. Do some fast and loose ink drawings where you can't erase and challenge yourself to finish a drawing no matter how badly you fucked it up. In the end, it's not about being able to do it perfectly, it's about having enough experience to realize how much you can fuck something up and have it still be great. Especially in ink work, those wonky lines and stuff can make some of the most compelling parts of the piece. Fifthly, if you're getting frustrated with art generally, you might want to start with a different artform first to get the general idea of crafting images, composition, etc etc etc. Photography served that purpose for me. (And you don't need expensive equipment: most of what got me accepted to school was iphone photos and the reviewer was a photography professor. It's the underpinnings that really make something good.) If you're really new to art, generally, this is a really great step. You can't start off at a flat run if you're not confident walking. Sixthly, be fucking kind to yourself at every possible opportunity. You will usually fail at doing so. It's ok. Just really try. Overall, when I find myself quitting or abandoning something, my first thought is "it's too hard for me" or "man I suck at this." In reality, I don't quit because it's too hard or I suck, I quit because I feel like I've failed at it. It's easy to think you just need the discipline to buckle down and rise above the challenge, but that's quite frequently bullshit. The tougher but better approach, if you can pull it off, is lowering your expectations to a level that's appropriate for where you're coming from and where you're trying to go, while still challenging you to improve. It seems like that would be easier, but it's not, because it requires confronting our egos. Remember that technical skill is one of the least important parts of being a really good artist. Furthermore, the difficulties you're encountering are incredibly common: this is not a personality flaw, moral failing, or some fundamental intellectual shortcoming, and it doesn't mean you won't be really fucking great. Stick with it friend!

by b450 2y ago

chefandy 2y ago

I'm not an art educator, but I am a fairly recent graduate from art school, and am familiar with the curricula of other art programs-- and that's the perspective that I'm speaking from. YMMV of course. Reasoning about objects symbolically is very different than reasoning about the way real world space and forms present themselves in 2d. The "copy the portrait upside down" type of exercises are great for casual self-paced learners: they help break naive habits, get people excited because they see the composition and intent that other people created coming out in their work, there's built-in guard rails to make sure they don't stray too far, and the references are commonly available and therefore easy to get crit on online, or just evaluate it yourself... but I think they take up a lot of time for what you get out of them, and it's really easy for people to plateau taking that approach. I also went to culinary school some time ago and worked as a chef-- there's a similar split in culinary art. If someone told me they were sick of making boring weeknight dinners, then sure, finding and following fun recipes and maybe doing some creative experimentation is a good place to start, and surely some people that start that way end up really learning how to cook eventually. Exposure to variety is also helpful in developing aesthetic sophistication. But without deliberate guidance towards theory-focused information, most hit a hard plateau with that approach, and there's a good chance they'll stay there. If they'd read a beginner-friendly technique-focused book like Michael Ruhlman's "Ratio" instead of trawling recipe sites for aspirational dinners, they might have seen less improvement in the quality of their dinners for a week, but in a few weeks they'd be miles beyond the first cargo-culting cook because rather than knowing a handful of recipes that work, they'd know how they worked. If someone said they were looking to get into art, generally, then there's no way I'd recommend even touching still life for a while. If they're like "I want to learn oil painting on canvas" then I absolutely would. P.S. > Now this may be because I am, at best, an intermediate artist So you're probably a pretty competent artist. ;-) Genuinely mediocre artists talk about their capability like they're Van Eyck.

sandspar 2y ago
Interesting! A couple of years ago, I attempted to begin "learning to draw well" (technique focus). I did the first couple of lessons on the Watts Atelier online course and attended several life drawing sittings. It didn't stick, though! Do you have any recommendations for the initial phases of "learning to draw well"? I think I focused too much on rigor, too soon, and didn't give myself enough chances to sink my teeth into it with initial easy wins.
- chefandy 2y ago
  Firstly, online learning is not for everybody. Seriously. Not having in-person accountability can be a huge problem for some people. Taking individual art lessons or drawing classes locally might be a good way to go. These skills aren't exceptionally rare and people who wield them aren't exceptionally well-paid for doing so. Secondly, not everybody learns at the same pace, and the course you're following might be too fast for you. Try doing each lesson twice or three times spread out over a few weeks. Some people need a little more reinforcement before it clicks, and they often wind up with better technical skills because they've made 3x the marks everyone else did to get to the same place, on the lesson plan. Thirdly, you might need more external support. One of the biggest benefits to drawing in a room full of other people drawing the same thing with a professor walking around was hearing when I was doing something well. As you surely know, after staring at a piece for however long, it's nearly impossible to view it objectively, and having someone else saying "hey you did a great job with this hatching there. Maybe you could do some of the line work around this object right here with the same approach." If you don't have that, consider posting in online communities (that aren't toxic as hell) or taking in-person classes. Fourthly, you might have the incredibly common streak of perfectionism you need to push through. It's psychologically hard to embark upon a task you know you don't have the skill to complete to your standards-- for some more than others. A really good way to push against this is to do a deliberately shitty version off it right off the bat. Messy crooked hairy lines, shitty shapes... just shoot to get the overall proportions approximately right and then maybe the negative space around the edges or something like that. A good quality vine charcoal which is super easily erasable, or a few colored pencils you can use for different preliminary stages in your sketching can really help you out. Counterintuitively, you can also try moving in the opposite direction. Do some fast and loose ink drawings where you can't erase and challenge yourself to finish a drawing no matter how badly you fucked it up. In the end, it's not about being able to do it perfectly, it's about having enough experience to realize how much you can fuck something up and have it still be great. Especially in ink work, those wonky lines and stuff can make some of the most compelling parts of the piece. Fifthly, if you're getting frustrated with art generally, you might want to start with a different artform first to get the general idea of crafting images, composition, etc etc etc. Photography served that purpose for me. (And you don't need expensive equipment: most of what got me accepted to school was iphone photos and the reviewer was a photography professor. It's the underpinnings that really make something good.) If you're really new to art, generally, this is a really great step. You can't start off at a flat run if you're not confident walking. Sixthly, be fucking kind to yourself at every possible opportunity. You will usually fail at doing so. It's ok. Just really try. Overall, when I find myself quitting or abandoning something, my first thought is "it's too hard for me" or "man I suck at this." In reality, I don't quit because it's too hard or I suck, I quit because I feel like I've failed at it. It's easy to think you just need the discipline to buckle down and rise above the challenge, but that's quite frequently bullshit. The tougher but better approach, if you can pull it off, is lowering your expectations to a level that's appropriate for where you're coming from and where you're trying to go, while still challenging you to improve. It seems like that would be easier, but it's not, because it requires confronting our egos. Remember that technical skill is one of the least important parts of being a really good artist. Furthermore, the difficulties you're encountering are incredibly common: this is not a personality flaw, moral failing, or some fundamental intellectual shortcoming, and it doesn't mean you won't be really fucking great. Stick with it friend!