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I just don't get how knowledge workers can slave away like that. I can be productive for 12-15 hours a day when the conditions are just right, but usually they

I just don't get how knowledge workers can slave away like that. I can be productive for 12-15 hours a day when the conditions are just right, but usually they aren't and after a few hours I need to switch to something less productive than actual coding. Do employers really see any measurable improvement in volume (let alone quality) of output after 30 hours a week?

foobarian 3y ago
It's not a rational phenomenon, it's social/peer-pressure based. Ever been in a situation where an open floor plan full of employees is typing away, with the boss walking the aisles, and you need to leave early?
pizzafeelsright 3y ago
I work anywhere between 25 and 45 hours. My work varies based upon my ability to complete the work given to me. I am not really qualified for some of the tasks in my position although I learn quickly. I would argue that 90% of employers cannot effectively measure productivity. I have worked in call centers where metrics are tracked - which of course I learned to game - allowing me to work the same hours while making 50% above my peers based upon bonuses. Knowledge workers are a different type of job with somewhere >50% being fake jobs that exist only because companies have capital and managers and head count means success.
kstrauser 3y ago
They don't. It's visually impressive: look how hard we're all working! But it's impossible that they're getting more than a pittance of useful output after hour 50 or so. You've got a guy sitting at his desk at 8:55PM on a Saturday night. Impressive. We all know he hasn't been doing anything worthwhile since some time back on Thursday, and you've been wasting electricity on him afterward.
- me_me_me 3y ago
  Its a knows patter in AAA games dev. People are pushed to work long hours, and the do perform maybe not at 100% but they do overproduce. However eventually they crash and burnout, then they get fired and replaced. Its a soul sucking industry that preys on positive, creative and idealistic people. Because in corpo you are always easily replaceable.
hnthrowaway0328 3y ago
The trick is, most work doesn't require you to be super productive. For example you could literally sleep through a lengthy meeting.
- wiseowise 3y ago
  You can, but that’s still work time.
  - hnthrowaway0328 3y ago
    Yeah, that's why 996 kills people slowly. 996 is taking away your own time for the company, and most likely in a not so productive way. So you don't get the refresh, the first 1-2 companies which employs you get the most benefit because you are not drained yet, but companies later in the line got a used battery almost completely drained -- and that's why China also has the 35 yrs old rule.
    - ketchupdebugger 3y ago
      also at 35, you are more likely to have kids. Once you have a kid, you wont submit to 996 anymore, so they'll just lay you off and replace you with a fresh out of college grad
      - markus_zhang 3y ago
        Yeah. It's a vicious cycle. UNLESS you made into a lead or a manager of some sort -- but it's still rare and you are still required to do a lot of overtime.

foobarian 3y ago

It's not a rational phenomenon, it's social/peer-pressure based. Ever been in a situation where an open floor plan full of employees is typing away, with the boss walking the aisles, and you need to leave early?

pizzafeelsright 3y ago

I work anywhere between 25 and 45 hours. My work varies based upon my ability to complete the work given to me. I am not really qualified for some of the tasks in my position although I learn quickly. I would argue that 90% of employers cannot effectively measure productivity. I have worked in call centers where metrics are tracked - which of course I learned to game - allowing me to work the same hours while making 50% above my peers based upon bonuses. Knowledge workers are a different type of job with somewhere >50% being fake jobs that exist only because companies have capital and managers and head count means success.

kstrauser 3y ago

They don't. It's visually impressive: look how hard we're all working! But it's impossible that they're getting more than a pittance of useful output after hour 50 or so. You've got a guy sitting at his desk at 8:55PM on a Saturday night. Impressive. We all know he hasn't been doing anything worthwhile since some time back on Thursday, and you've been wasting electricity on him afterward.

me_me_me 3y ago
Its a knows patter in AAA games dev. People are pushed to work long hours, and the do perform maybe not at 100% but they do overproduce. However eventually they crash and burnout, then they get fired and replaced. Its a soul sucking industry that preys on positive, creative and idealistic people. Because in corpo you are always easily replaceable.

hnthrowaway0328 3y ago

The trick is, most work doesn't require you to be super productive. For example you could literally sleep through a lengthy meeting.

wiseowise 3y ago
You can, but that’s still work time.
- hnthrowaway0328 3y ago
  Yeah, that's why 996 kills people slowly. 996 is taking away your own time for the company, and most likely in a not so productive way. So you don't get the refresh, the first 1-2 companies which employs you get the most benefit because you are not drained yet, but companies later in the line got a used battery almost completely drained -- and that's why China also has the 35 yrs old rule.
  - ketchupdebugger 3y ago
    also at 35, you are more likely to have kids. Once you have a kid, you wont submit to 996 anymore, so they'll just lay you off and replace you with a fresh out of college grad
    - markus_zhang 3y ago
      Yeah. It's a vicious cycle. UNLESS you made into a lead or a manager of some sort -- but it's still rare and you are still required to do a lot of overtime.