4 ms·

Tofu. Problem solved.

by lupire 3y ago

rmvt 3y ago
tempeh (also made of soy). rice and beans. chickpeas.
- adrian_b 3y ago
  Lentils, chickpeas and beans are the best sources of proteins among non-processed vegetables, but they still contain too much starch and it is impossible to use them exclusively to provide enough proteins within a diet of not more than 2000 kcal/day, suitable for a sedentary life style. They are necessary for a vegan diet, but they are not sufficient. They must be combined with some other source of proteins, which must contain much methionine and which must have a better ratio between protein content and calories. The commercial protein extracts from them are much more expensive than meat, so they are a non-solution.
  - bartonfink 3y ago
    "suitable for a sedentary life style" change this.
    - adrian_b 3y ago
      An adequate daily protein intake from food cooked from vegetables that have not been processed using special methods for protein separation would provide over 3000 kcal/day. Using so much energy requires many hours of intense physical activity. When your job requires spending 8 hours or more per day sitting in front of a computer, then it is absolutely impossible to also do enough physical work to consume over 3000 kcal. Therefore your suggestion is also a non-solution for many people. It is true however that for most of our ancestors the problem of gaining weight when eating a strictly vegan diet would not have existed. This is indeed just a modern problem, of the sedentary people. For instance, bread is normally considered to be an incomplete source of proteins, but that is just because one cannot eat enough. Eating bread made from 1 kilogram of flour per day provides enough of all essential amino-acids. It also provides about 3500 kcal/day. Someone doing hard physical work, like it was much more common in the past, could eat only bread without needing any other source of proteins.
      - bartonfink 3y ago
        You can use a lot of words, but it doesn't change the underlying fact that you're too lazy to make your dietary principles really work. Burning 3000 calories a day while working in software is absolutely possible. I did it today.
  - Recursing 3y ago
    > but they still contain too much starch and it is impossible to use them exclusively to provide enough proteins within a diet of not more than 2000 kcal/day, suitable for a sedentary life style. Lentils have 26g of protein and 353 calories per 100g, and eggs have 13g of protein and 143 calories per 100g, so the ratio is 13.5 for lentils and 11 for eggs. Doesn't seem all that different.
    - adrian_b 3y ago
      Whole eggs, like also most kinds of dairy, have similar amounts of fat and proteins, so indeed they are not much better as sources of proteins than nuts or seeds. On the other hand, lean meat is almost pure protein, so its ratio of protein vs. energy is 3 to 4 times better than for vegetable sources. Even with whole eggs, you can get much less calories than with lentils, if they are used to supplement cereal proteins, because they have a significantly better lysine to calories ratio, so when the amount of required lysine is specified you can eat less of them than in the case when their amount would be computed to provide a specified amount of protein.
adrian_b 3y ago
Where I live, in Europe, tofu is much more expensive than chicken meat or eggs, so it is a non-solution. I suppose that in countries where soy is an important crop, tofu may have a competitive price, but not here.
- Recursing 3y ago
  I'm not vegan, but in most places in Europe lentils are really cheap (2.50€/kg)
  - adrian_b 3y ago
    Lentils are a good source of proteins and are about twice cheaper than the cheapest meat, but like any non-processed vegetables they have a too high ratio between energy and protein content. For a sedentary life style it is impossible to compose a vegan diet that has enough proteins without containing too much energy. It is necessary to use at least one protein source where a special method has been used to separate the proteins from the rest of the vegetable. There are plenty of such products on the market, like tofu and various protein extracts, but all of them are much more expensive than chicken meat. At the tofu price mentioned by another poster it is 2.5 times more expensive than chicken breast, while other kinds of protein extracts that I have seen around are 5 times more expensive than chicken breast. The discussion was strictly about how to get vegan proteins cheaper than meat. When you are willing to pay many times more than for meat, then of course it is trivial to eat a vegan diet. Because all commercial products are more expensive than meat, the only other way is to extract vegetable protein at home. I am aware of only a single source of vegetable proteins where the proteins can be separated without any special equipment or chemicals (excluding soy, which is expensive in Europe), and that is wheat flour, from which the gluten can be separated from starch by simple washing.
- lupire 3y ago
  Also consider that tofu is edible both raw and cooked, while meat must be cooked. So meat adds energy and labor costs of cooking. But in any case, even paying double meat price for tofu protein, $.05/g of protein, is still "too cheap to meter" in the context of an industrialized lifestyle.

Tofu. Problem solved.

by lupire 3y ago

Tofu. Problem solved.

rmvt 3y ago

tempeh (also made of soy). rice and beans. chickpeas.

adrian_b 3y ago
Lentils, chickpeas and beans are the best sources of proteins among non-processed vegetables, but they still contain too much starch and it is impossible to use them exclusively to provide enough proteins within a diet of not more than 2000 kcal/day, suitable for a sedentary life style. They are necessary for a vegan diet, but they are not sufficient. They must be combined with some other source of proteins, which must contain much methionine and which must have a better ratio between protein content and calories. The commercial protein extracts from them are much more expensive than meat, so they are a non-solution.
- bartonfink 3y ago
  "suitable for a sedentary life style" change this.
  - adrian_b 3y ago
    An adequate daily protein intake from food cooked from vegetables that have not been processed using special methods for protein separation would provide over 3000 kcal/day. Using so much energy requires many hours of intense physical activity. When your job requires spending 8 hours or more per day sitting in front of a computer, then it is absolutely impossible to also do enough physical work to consume over 3000 kcal. Therefore your suggestion is also a non-solution for many people. It is true however that for most of our ancestors the problem of gaining weight when eating a strictly vegan diet would not have existed. This is indeed just a modern problem, of the sedentary people. For instance, bread is normally considered to be an incomplete source of proteins, but that is just because one cannot eat enough. Eating bread made from 1 kilogram of flour per day provides enough of all essential amino-acids. It also provides about 3500 kcal/day. Someone doing hard physical work, like it was much more common in the past, could eat only bread without needing any other source of proteins.
    - bartonfink 3y ago
      You can use a lot of words, but it doesn't change the underlying fact that you're too lazy to make your dietary principles really work. Burning 3000 calories a day while working in software is absolutely possible. I did it today.
- Recursing 3y ago
  > but they still contain too much starch and it is impossible to use them exclusively to provide enough proteins within a diet of not more than 2000 kcal/day, suitable for a sedentary life style. Lentils have 26g of protein and 353 calories per 100g, and eggs have 13g of protein and 143 calories per 100g, so the ratio is 13.5 for lentils and 11 for eggs. Doesn't seem all that different.
  - adrian_b 3y ago
    Whole eggs, like also most kinds of dairy, have similar amounts of fat and proteins, so indeed they are not much better as sources of proteins than nuts or seeds. On the other hand, lean meat is almost pure protein, so its ratio of protein vs. energy is 3 to 4 times better than for vegetable sources. Even with whole eggs, you can get much less calories than with lentils, if they are used to supplement cereal proteins, because they have a significantly better lysine to calories ratio, so when the amount of required lysine is specified you can eat less of them than in the case when their amount would be computed to provide a specified amount of protein.

adrian_b 3y ago

Where I live, in Europe, tofu is much more expensive than chicken meat or eggs, so it is a non-solution. I suppose that in countries where soy is an important crop, tofu may have a competitive price, but not here.

Recursing 3y ago
I'm not vegan, but in most places in Europe lentils are really cheap (2.50€/kg)
- adrian_b 3y ago
  Lentils are a good source of proteins and are about twice cheaper than the cheapest meat, but like any non-processed vegetables they have a too high ratio between energy and protein content. For a sedentary life style it is impossible to compose a vegan diet that has enough proteins without containing too much energy. It is necessary to use at least one protein source where a special method has been used to separate the proteins from the rest of the vegetable. There are plenty of such products on the market, like tofu and various protein extracts, but all of them are much more expensive than chicken meat. At the tofu price mentioned by another poster it is 2.5 times more expensive than chicken breast, while other kinds of protein extracts that I have seen around are 5 times more expensive than chicken breast. The discussion was strictly about how to get vegan proteins cheaper than meat. When you are willing to pay many times more than for meat, then of course it is trivial to eat a vegan diet. Because all commercial products are more expensive than meat, the only other way is to extract vegetable protein at home. I am aware of only a single source of vegetable proteins where the proteins can be separated without any special equipment or chemicals (excluding soy, which is expensive in Europe), and that is wheat flour, from which the gluten can be separated from starch by simple washing.
lupire 3y ago
Also consider that tofu is edible both raw and cooked, while meat must be cooked. So meat adds energy and labor costs of cooking. But in any case, even paying double meat price for tofu protein, $.05/g of protein, is still "too cheap to meter" in the context of an industrialized lifestyle.