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i find this to be, unfortunately, the current western stance on responsibility towards anyone: irresponsibility. for some reason, leaving people to go their way

i find this to be, unfortunately, the current western stance on responsibility towards anyone: irresponsibility. for some reason, leaving people to go their way, wherever it may lead them, has been interpreted to be the good and the moral duty of anyone who understands what freedom (for intelligent beings) means. with all due respect, that’s cowardice and a neglect of duty. i explained to my sibling the other day that we cannot live our lives however we wanted because of our layers of responsibility: first to ourselves (as a human beings in this civilization), then to our family and friends (who expect to count on us at some point), to the society we inhabit (i am currently an immigrant), the human race, and lastly the environment. those are not easy responsibilities and they could crush anyone. but absconding isn’t a choice: we’re not here for selfish reasons. i think you should intervene, at whatever cost to you. because no one else would, and depending on how persistent you are, she’d be grateful for the care and attention you showed. because that’s the sort of action that pure love motivates. good luck

skilled 3y ago
I have tried being supportive on multiple occasions. I offered to help with building her a platform online since she spends so much time there. I offered to team up with her in case she wants to create an eCommerce site. The discussion always ends with, “I don’t know”. I have tried various approaches, including being provocative, and that is why I said it is not worth it. I am not abandoning her by any means and we talk. We are on good terms so to speak, but sadly those good terms only extend to lengths of her own comfort. She has a genuine problem with sharing who she is as a person and that is not easy to work with. When every other thing you say gets interpreted as an “attack” or “you are crossing boundaries”, it makes no sense to push the person to end up where you started.
- michaelsalim 3y ago
  I don't normally comment on these kinds of topic but I thought I should chip in on this one. The things you have listed are all solutions to a problem that you think she has. Something in the line of "If you/we do X, you'll be happier. Trust me" Honestly, it doesn't have to be that complex. I was shocked to read about the platform and the eCommerce site. That's such a HN solution to an ultimately human problem. I believe the only thing you need to focus on right now is to understand where she's coming from. Do you know why she does the thing she does? Do you know what she feels about it? That's it. Simple. But it'll be hard for sure. Because to you (and me), it's very clearly an issue that needs to be "fixed". But how would you feel if someone keeps telling you solutions to things you don't think are a problem? Like: "Hey, do you want a custom social media site so that you don't spend so much time on HN?" - the implication is that you're a HN addict. My first response would be defensive. "I think HN is good. You haven't even spent much time on it. How would you know anything about it? " I think that unless there's this common ground of understanding and support, you'll never get anywhere.
  - kennyadam 3y ago
    Agreed. I was expecting something like asking her to go for a walk outside, visit a beach... something grounding and enjoyable away from the phone. Not trying to teach her frontend dev lol.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- wholinator2 3y ago
  Yeah, that makes sense. She's pushed you away. Sounds like she's pushed everyone away. You don't have to keep fighting. I don't know if you currently live in proximity to her but if so, one day that will end and you'll have no chance at saving her then. I don't think building online platform is the fix for this, and it doesn't sound like that's what she really wants. If i armchair about my own experiences, sounds like she wants friends but is scared and doesn't remember how to get them. If i we're living the scenario that's in my head in reference to your words, i would focus my efforts on going outside and enjoying the world, then attempting to find people, you only have to force the first couple conversations before it becomes possible. Also, is it possible she's just depressed? I her a couple therapy sessions would help. These methods are how i got out of my video game hole, and i woulda killed for someone to go through this with. I can't tell you what to do, but what I've heard so far it doesn't sound impossible. It does sound like you've accepted the barrier to assistance she's set up. Maybe when you're ready to leave someday you can make a final push
- yawboakye 3y ago
  i’m extremely ill-qualified to advise here, and i think it will be even more reckless to assume i understand or appreciate the scope of your effort. it’s more difficult to even suggest what to do. what are your thoughts on genuinely being interested in her? not for the purposes of helping her. but being interested in her so that you spend time in conversations? start with a minute here and there reminiscing about moments between you two (and perhaps the larger family) that you both enjoyed, and gradually moving into longer conversations? i think what i’m saying here is that you might need to rebuild trust then build a new relationship on top of that. how to go about that? i really don’t know.
lm28469 3y ago
> i find this to be, unfortunately, the current western stance on responsibility towards anyone: irresponsibility. The complete destruction of religions, then traditions and now families/education (lack of education, lack of authority, &c.) probably had something to do with it. You can't replace god/families/education with an iphone 15 and expect society to continue on the same path. And I'm saying that as a complete atheist, people need a framework, goals, rules, models, outlooks, a moral compass, &c. if all we have left is complete relativism and consumerism it's much harder to find a personal meaning and straight up impossible to find a global one
- wholinator2 3y ago
  I'm confused. I've seen how the breath of Christianity in society has reduced, that's definitely true. But it seemed to me like my generations parents just weren't that interested in church and so we didn't grow up with it. I don't think "destroyed" is a term that could describe at least American Christianity (where i see these arguments the most). Likewise, modern families wait to have children longer. This is because career expectations and housing prices have been raised by the people who have more influence over it than we do. I can't change housing prices but i bet a sufficiently motivated private equity firm could, if not least by just selling their portfolio of rent-seeking. And what is wrong with education? This one truly baffles me. Kids these days learn more math faster than kids 50 years ago. They learn about a large and varied swath of subjects. High school's as i understand haven't really changed much except for upgrading curriculum and expectations occasionally. Colleges definitely aren't cheaper, but there's a lot more options out there, more degrees, more possibilities, maybe not more but different jobs to go to. I do think it's bad to let children in school have iPad time, any at all. They should learn to use the internet in the proper way, focused on learning and informational resources. But my phone has been immensely useful for my education! Actually irreplacebly helpful and expanding. I've got dozens of textbooks on here that I've used for many things over time. I've got a youtube tuned to educational content and i don't let myself have enough time to get off track. This phone is what I'm reading your comment from! It's what I'm engaging in this conversation with. I'd say yes, finding meaning is different now. The old tricks don't work anymore because you just don't have to. What did people used to do who didn't find meaning? I do think GP should at least attempt to help his sister, that's his responsibility to bear in society. I think phones do make certain things harder, and others, like wasting away, much easier. I don't think having more churches would solve that. I think we need actual education in schools about this, the same way we talk about drunk driving, "be careful, you don't wanna waste your life, or someone else's". This is just the first time anything like this has happened in society to my understanding. I'd blame the corporations who parasitically feed on the time, attention, lives of people who are unlucky enough to get sucked in. We have the term "whale" to describe a person who gets too financially invested in a game (phone or other). Perhaps we need a derogatory term to describe people who get to chronically invested in social media. Something good, to really discourage people from wanting to be like that. There's lots of solutions, i don't think bringing back "traditional family values", "christain morality", or homeschooling is gonna fix it. Those are our old tools, useful at times for certain things. We need to build some new ones.
pgwhalen 3y ago
I like that layers of responsibility theory, and applaud you if you live your life by it. One thing I would amend for myself - I don't think I feel as though I have responsibility to the environment in and of itself. I am an environmentalist, but that follows from my duty to the human race. The earth will keep on earthing either way.

skilled 3y ago

I have tried being supportive on multiple occasions. I offered to help with building her a platform online since she spends so much time there. I offered to team up with her in case she wants to create an eCommerce site. The discussion always ends with, “I don’t know”. I have tried various approaches, including being provocative, and that is why I said it is not worth it. I am not abandoning her by any means and we talk. We are on good terms so to speak, but sadly those good terms only extend to lengths of her own comfort. She has a genuine problem with sharing who she is as a person and that is not easy to work with. When every other thing you say gets interpreted as an “attack” or “you are crossing boundaries”, it makes no sense to push the person to end up where you started.

michaelsalim 3y ago
I don't normally comment on these kinds of topic but I thought I should chip in on this one. The things you have listed are all solutions to a problem that you think she has. Something in the line of "If you/we do X, you'll be happier. Trust me" Honestly, it doesn't have to be that complex. I was shocked to read about the platform and the eCommerce site. That's such a HN solution to an ultimately human problem. I believe the only thing you need to focus on right now is to understand where she's coming from. Do you know why she does the thing she does? Do you know what she feels about it? That's it. Simple. But it'll be hard for sure. Because to you (and me), it's very clearly an issue that needs to be "fixed". But how would you feel if someone keeps telling you solutions to things you don't think are a problem? Like: "Hey, do you want a custom social media site so that you don't spend so much time on HN?" - the implication is that you're a HN addict. My first response would be defensive. "I think HN is good. You haven't even spent much time on it. How would you know anything about it? " I think that unless there's this common ground of understanding and support, you'll never get anywhere.
- kennyadam 3y ago
  Agreed. I was expecting something like asking her to go for a walk outside, visit a beach... something grounding and enjoyable away from the phone. Not trying to teach her frontend dev lol.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
wholinator2 3y ago
Yeah, that makes sense. She's pushed you away. Sounds like she's pushed everyone away. You don't have to keep fighting. I don't know if you currently live in proximity to her but if so, one day that will end and you'll have no chance at saving her then. I don't think building online platform is the fix for this, and it doesn't sound like that's what she really wants. If i armchair about my own experiences, sounds like she wants friends but is scared and doesn't remember how to get them. If i we're living the scenario that's in my head in reference to your words, i would focus my efforts on going outside and enjoying the world, then attempting to find people, you only have to force the first couple conversations before it becomes possible. Also, is it possible she's just depressed? I her a couple therapy sessions would help. These methods are how i got out of my video game hole, and i woulda killed for someone to go through this with. I can't tell you what to do, but what I've heard so far it doesn't sound impossible. It does sound like you've accepted the barrier to assistance she's set up. Maybe when you're ready to leave someday you can make a final push
yawboakye 3y ago
i’m extremely ill-qualified to advise here, and i think it will be even more reckless to assume i understand or appreciate the scope of your effort. it’s more difficult to even suggest what to do. what are your thoughts on genuinely being interested in her? not for the purposes of helping her. but being interested in her so that you spend time in conversations? start with a minute here and there reminiscing about moments between you two (and perhaps the larger family) that you both enjoyed, and gradually moving into longer conversations? i think what i’m saying here is that you might need to rebuild trust then build a new relationship on top of that. how to go about that? i really don’t know.

lm28469 3y ago

> i find this to be, unfortunately, the current western stance on responsibility towards anyone: irresponsibility. The complete destruction of religions, then traditions and now families/education (lack of education, lack of authority, &c.) probably had something to do with it. You can't replace god/families/education with an iphone 15 and expect society to continue on the same path. And I'm saying that as a complete atheist, people need a framework, goals, rules, models, outlooks, a moral compass, &c. if all we have left is complete relativism and consumerism it's much harder to find a personal meaning and straight up impossible to find a global one

wholinator2 3y ago
I'm confused. I've seen how the breath of Christianity in society has reduced, that's definitely true. But it seemed to me like my generations parents just weren't that interested in church and so we didn't grow up with it. I don't think "destroyed" is a term that could describe at least American Christianity (where i see these arguments the most). Likewise, modern families wait to have children longer. This is because career expectations and housing prices have been raised by the people who have more influence over it than we do. I can't change housing prices but i bet a sufficiently motivated private equity firm could, if not least by just selling their portfolio of rent-seeking. And what is wrong with education? This one truly baffles me. Kids these days learn more math faster than kids 50 years ago. They learn about a large and varied swath of subjects. High school's as i understand haven't really changed much except for upgrading curriculum and expectations occasionally. Colleges definitely aren't cheaper, but there's a lot more options out there, more degrees, more possibilities, maybe not more but different jobs to go to. I do think it's bad to let children in school have iPad time, any at all. They should learn to use the internet in the proper way, focused on learning and informational resources. But my phone has been immensely useful for my education! Actually irreplacebly helpful and expanding. I've got dozens of textbooks on here that I've used for many things over time. I've got a youtube tuned to educational content and i don't let myself have enough time to get off track. This phone is what I'm reading your comment from! It's what I'm engaging in this conversation with. I'd say yes, finding meaning is different now. The old tricks don't work anymore because you just don't have to. What did people used to do who didn't find meaning? I do think GP should at least attempt to help his sister, that's his responsibility to bear in society. I think phones do make certain things harder, and others, like wasting away, much easier. I don't think having more churches would solve that. I think we need actual education in schools about this, the same way we talk about drunk driving, "be careful, you don't wanna waste your life, or someone else's". This is just the first time anything like this has happened in society to my understanding. I'd blame the corporations who parasitically feed on the time, attention, lives of people who are unlucky enough to get sucked in. We have the term "whale" to describe a person who gets too financially invested in a game (phone or other). Perhaps we need a derogatory term to describe people who get to chronically invested in social media. Something good, to really discourage people from wanting to be like that. There's lots of solutions, i don't think bringing back "traditional family values", "christain morality", or homeschooling is gonna fix it. Those are our old tools, useful at times for certain things. We need to build some new ones.

pgwhalen 3y ago

I like that layers of responsibility theory, and applaud you if you live your life by it. One thing I would amend for myself - I don't think I feel as though I have responsibility to the environment in and of itself. I am an environmentalist, but that follows from my duty to the human race. The earth will keep on earthing either way.