6 ms·

> “There aren’t many places this amount of cash can go.” Sure, buddy.

by 55555 3y ago

yieldcrv 3y ago
This spring’s music festivals with some phantom Will Call sales can clean this money into unquestioned revenue on the books A few thousand last minute tables “sold” at Coachella side parties will do the same LA / Socal has so many things and a big enough spread out enough economy to wash any amount Can use a design studio “by appointment only” with some phantom customers and phantom projects the studio is paid for I could keep going. who put my email in my bio, that’s weird
- nwiswell 3y ago
  None of this works if the serial numbers were recorded when the cash was put into the vault. Take your first example: the music festival promoter shows up at his bank with a duffel bag of cash -- that's not unusual until suddenly every single missing serial number lights up the bank's cash handling systems. Busted. It's possible to launder marked cash, but it has to be in such small quantities that it's always plausible that it was simply spent in circulation, which in practice dramatically limits the speed with which it can be laundered. Probably the single most straightforward approach to dispose of marked bills would be to swap for unmarked cash with someone who doesn't care, like an overseas drug lord. But man, good luck with that.
  - Gasp0de 3y ago
    Just bring it out of the country. Many third world countries use USD as a side currency, just spend it there. Buy a few houses in Syria, a few businesses in Ecuador, sell them when you need clean money.
    - blackhawkC17 3y ago
      No it doesn’t work that way. You assume they can just move $20 million+ in cash out of the country just easily, then go to Syria of all places (and hope a terrorist or rebel group doesn’t murder them and take the cash) or Ecuador (and hope a cartel doesn’t do the same). Many armchair money launderers on HN cooking up unrealistic schemes.. There’s a reason real money launderers charge up to 50 cents on the dollar. It’s f** difficult.
      - walterbell 3y ago
        https://insightcrime.org/news/chinese-money-launderers-mexico-cartels-move-millions-secret/ https://insightcrime.org/news/chinese-money-launderers-mexic... > While the involvement of Chinese money-laundering rings in handling drug proceeds from Mexico is nothing new, a number of recent court cases in the United States have revealed crucial information about how these schemes work ... weekly pick-ups from representatives of Mexican criminal groups, made in cash ranging between $150,000 and $1 million, with an average of $500,000. These were made in large cities including Chicago, New York and Atlanta ... network of Chinese-owned businesses in the United States and Mexico ... transfer a correspondent amount of money through Chinese banking apps. This happened entirely through the Asian country’s domestic banking system ... “It’s the most sophisticated form of money laundering that’s ever existed,” one of the US sources told Reuters.
        sandspar 3y ago
        This is also literally one of the most complex, relationship-based, and opaque to outsiders communities on the planet. Try to wrap your head around the unimaginable clout and favor calling that this took to develop. "Exclusive" is an understatement. Nobody has free access to something like this.
        which 3y ago
        It's basically the Chinese version of hawala except with drug dealers. A number of ethnicities have developed informal value transfer systems. Pretty sure it's well documented that everyday Argentinians use systems like this for getting money out of Argentina.
        stef25 3y ago
        After reading the article it's still not clear to me what's meant by "transfer a correspondent amount of money through Chinese banking apps". Jane picks up 500K in cash in Chicago and then transfers 450K from her business in China, to Joe's business in China. Joe then transfers 400K from his US account to Juan's account in the US. Is that how it works ?
    - yieldcrv 3y ago
      “just” If you get caught with over $10,000 undeclared at any US border or at the corresponding border, it gets seized If you declare it, it gets seized.
      - c22 3y ago
        You don't have to be at the border and the amount can be far less than 10,000. If law enforcement anywhere in the US learns you have it, it gets seized.
      - EricE 3y ago
        lol that anyone thinks we have borders!
      - lazide 3y ago
        Very few US border crossings check anything leaving the US. The Canadians at some spots do, mostly to catch guns and drugs. The Mexicans usually don’t bother. And in both cases, most remote crossings are unmonitored.
        mythrwy 3y ago
        That used to be the case but not so much anymore. The last two times I have driven into Mexico I've been searched and questioned (granted not very thoroughly like the US side does). The took pictures of the vehicle/occupants and had some kind of video device as well.
  - yieldcrv 3y ago
    Those dollars need to be both exchanged and intermingled with different dollars, and unlinked from the illicit source before depositing into the electronic financial system I don’t think financial institutions care as much as you’re assuming, and there are alot of types of organizations that count as institutions - where the whole anti money laundering regime relies on trusting that the other institution vetted the money - but assuming they do care, it means avoiding them in alot of ways I still think reintegration can be done with just cash payment, and cash investment into a revenue producing business. But what you’re saying does rely on the recipient also not depositing into a bank for some time until there are enough other dollars intermingled too. What’s “enough”?
  - southernplaces7 3y ago
    >None of this works if the serial numbers were recorded when the cash was put into the vault. There are workarounds even for that, such as shipping the money overseas and using it in places that love US dollars but don't much care for cash transaction reporting rules. However, I doubt any group as apparently pro as these guys, who seem to have known exactly what to hit and when for a ton of money, would have done so without first also verifying that the serial numbers weren't recorded. I'd bet that they werent, at least not yet.
    - nwiswell 3y ago
      It's difficult to imagine that it wasn't recorded well before it even reached the vault. Firms like Garda inventory cash in excruciating detail as a matter of standard procedure, since otherwise it would rapidly disappear into employee pockets.
      - lazide 3y ago
        There is a big difference in labor between confirming sealed bundles of cash are intact, counting the bills, and tracking every serial number of each bill. Considering how ‘cost efficient’ they were being on security, hard to imagine they were maintaining detailed databases of each serial number for this cash. These are the same folks that bitch and whine over $.25/hr raises for their employees.
        nwiswell 3y ago
        > There is a big difference in labor between confirming sealed bundles of cash are intact, counting the bills, and tracking every serial number of each bill. There are machines for this. Garda absolutely has them.
        lazide 3y ago
        There are also non shitty security systems. Garda absolutely has them. They just didn’t have them installed here for whatever insane reason.
- gosub100 3y ago
  I'm thinking a simultaneous laundering at Vegas, Atlantic City, and other gaming venues could launder tons. Drop a few hundred into a slot machine, play a few games, hit cash out. Take the ticket to a cash dispenser machine and leave.
  - yieldcrv 3y ago
    Personally I think this is viable, but the sister comment rebuttal is that the stolen cash serial numbers would be flagged I don’t think they would be but I’m trying to play along and work around that too
    - gosub100 3y ago
      The bill validator in the slot machine will not flag a serial number. It won't be caught until the bills hit the bank. But once they deduced that casinos were being used, Barney Fife would be hot on the trail.
      - yieldcrv 3y ago
        So what’s the solution? Casinos file currency transaction reports over $10k and trying to stay under $10k is illegal structuring too, if flagged There is still a trail with that method. there are gaps in the AML/KYC framework but I don’t think this a good one
        gosub100 3y ago
        I am not suggesting going over $10k at the cashier's desk. The automated ticket cashing machines can easily handle $500-$1k amounts. I'm also not suggesting all $30MM could be washed in one casino in one day. I do think a few people could wash $100k in a day or 2, depending on the size of the operation. 2 edits: wash isn't really the right word because you still can't prove where you got it. Secondly, you'd potentially be showing yourself on video so that's a significant risk.
        3y ago
sschueller 3y ago
The US sent pallets of cash to Iraq and that disappeared so a mere 30 Million won't be very hard.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- bryanrasmussen 3y ago
  governments have significantly greater abilities to disappear cash than private citizens.
  - spacecadet 3y ago
    yeah they literally print the shit
    - euroderf 3y ago
      Too much work and specialized equipment. Pallets are simpler.
- duped 3y ago
  It's not like that money was stolen though, it was spent without any kind of controls. The Pentagon disappears far more than $20 billion, the fact it was cash and the logistics in getting it to Iraq and out of the hands of the military is the only interesting part. And it's not really that surprising imo. If you need to pay translators, contractors, bribe local officials or collaborators, assets, etc in a country that doesn't have a functioning banking system you need cash. And it's quicker to deliver some pallets with a C-130 and have guys dump it into duffel bags for whatever they need then to ask Congress nicely to set up bank transfers.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    > It's not like that money was stolen though, it was spent without any kind of controls. Even the USG says $6B+ was probably stolen. https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/takeaway/segments/140471-iraqs-missing-money-real-whodunit https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/takeaway/segments/14047...
cobertos 3y ago
What do you mean? The next largest LA heist was caught because they couldn't disperse of the cash properly [1]. It's hard to spend that much money with seemingly no income stream without the IRS raising a few eyebrows. You would need a lot of planning and coordination on how it's spent and where it's spent to make it look legit. And have enough untainted income to live while you plan on how to spend the tainted stuff. [1]: https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2022-01-05/dunbar-armored-heist-revisited-how-the-crew-got-caught-essential-california https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2022-01-05/dun...
- retentionissue 3y ago
  Hawala, habibi.
- BoardsOfCanada 3y ago
  From the article you linked it sounds more like a vehicle used to transport the money during or immediately after the robbery was what led the police to them. "Despite the daring robbery, what ended up solving it was not that exciting: An informant identified Hill as the person who rented a 14-foot U-Haul truck a day before the heist and had returned it a day later."
- gosub100 3y ago
  I find it hard to believe they could meticulously plan the tactical aspects of this heist but not plan for how to launder the loot. Since US cash is accepted abroad (and has more buying power) my guess is exporting it is the plan. If I were the cops I'd check Google maps records to see who was looking at the satellite view of the area before the heist.

> “There aren’t many places this amount of cash can go.” Sure, buddy.

by 55555 3y ago

> “There aren’t many places this amount of cash can go.” Sure, buddy.

This spring’s music festivals with some phantom Will Call sales can clean this money into unquestioned revenue on the books A few thousand last minute tables “sold” at Coachella side parties will do the same LA / Socal has so many things and a big enough spread out enough economy to wash any amount Can use a design studio “by appointment only” with some phantom customers and phantom projects the studio is paid for I could keep going. who put my email in my bio, that’s weird

nwiswell 3y ago
None of this works if the serial numbers were recorded when the cash was put into the vault. Take your first example: the music festival promoter shows up at his bank with a duffel bag of cash -- that's not unusual until suddenly every single missing serial number lights up the bank's cash handling systems. Busted. It's possible to launder marked cash, but it has to be in such small quantities that it's always plausible that it was simply spent in circulation, which in practice dramatically limits the speed with which it can be laundered. Probably the single most straightforward approach to dispose of marked bills would be to swap for unmarked cash with someone who doesn't care, like an overseas drug lord. But man, good luck with that.
- Gasp0de 3y ago
  Just bring it out of the country. Many third world countries use USD as a side currency, just spend it there. Buy a few houses in Syria, a few businesses in Ecuador, sell them when you need clean money.
  - blackhawkC17 3y ago
    No it doesn’t work that way. You assume they can just move $20 million+ in cash out of the country just easily, then go to Syria of all places (and hope a terrorist or rebel group doesn’t murder them and take the cash) or Ecuador (and hope a cartel doesn’t do the same). Many armchair money launderers on HN cooking up unrealistic schemes.. There’s a reason real money launderers charge up to 50 cents on the dollar. It’s f** difficult.
    - walterbell 3y ago
      https://insightcrime.org/news/chinese-money-launderers-mexico-cartels-move-millions-secret/ https://insightcrime.org/news/chinese-money-launderers-mexic... > While the involvement of Chinese money-laundering rings in handling drug proceeds from Mexico is nothing new, a number of recent court cases in the United States have revealed crucial information about how these schemes work ... weekly pick-ups from representatives of Mexican criminal groups, made in cash ranging between $150,000 and $1 million, with an average of $500,000. These were made in large cities including Chicago, New York and Atlanta ... network of Chinese-owned businesses in the United States and Mexico ... transfer a correspondent amount of money through Chinese banking apps. This happened entirely through the Asian country’s domestic banking system ... “It’s the most sophisticated form of money laundering that’s ever existed,” one of the US sources told Reuters.
      - sandspar 3y ago
        This is also literally one of the most complex, relationship-based, and opaque to outsiders communities on the planet. Try to wrap your head around the unimaginable clout and favor calling that this took to develop. "Exclusive" is an understatement. Nobody has free access to something like this.
        which 3y ago
        It's basically the Chinese version of hawala except with drug dealers. A number of ethnicities have developed informal value transfer systems. Pretty sure it's well documented that everyday Argentinians use systems like this for getting money out of Argentina.
      - stef25 3y ago
        After reading the article it's still not clear to me what's meant by "transfer a correspondent amount of money through Chinese banking apps". Jane picks up 500K in cash in Chicago and then transfers 450K from her business in China, to Joe's business in China. Joe then transfers 400K from his US account to Juan's account in the US. Is that how it works ?
  - yieldcrv 3y ago
    “just” If you get caught with over $10,000 undeclared at any US border or at the corresponding border, it gets seized If you declare it, it gets seized.
    - c22 3y ago
      You don't have to be at the border and the amount can be far less than 10,000. If law enforcement anywhere in the US learns you have it, it gets seized.
    - EricE 3y ago
      lol that anyone thinks we have borders!
    - lazide 3y ago
      Very few US border crossings check anything leaving the US. The Canadians at some spots do, mostly to catch guns and drugs. The Mexicans usually don’t bother. And in both cases, most remote crossings are unmonitored.
      - mythrwy 3y ago
        That used to be the case but not so much anymore. The last two times I have driven into Mexico I've been searched and questioned (granted not very thoroughly like the US side does). The took pictures of the vehicle/occupants and had some kind of video device as well.
- yieldcrv 3y ago
  Those dollars need to be both exchanged and intermingled with different dollars, and unlinked from the illicit source before depositing into the electronic financial system I don’t think financial institutions care as much as you’re assuming, and there are alot of types of organizations that count as institutions - where the whole anti money laundering regime relies on trusting that the other institution vetted the money - but assuming they do care, it means avoiding them in alot of ways I still think reintegration can be done with just cash payment, and cash investment into a revenue producing business. But what you’re saying does rely on the recipient also not depositing into a bank for some time until there are enough other dollars intermingled too. What’s “enough”?
- southernplaces7 3y ago
  >None of this works if the serial numbers were recorded when the cash was put into the vault. There are workarounds even for that, such as shipping the money overseas and using it in places that love US dollars but don't much care for cash transaction reporting rules. However, I doubt any group as apparently pro as these guys, who seem to have known exactly what to hit and when for a ton of money, would have done so without first also verifying that the serial numbers weren't recorded. I'd bet that they werent, at least not yet.
  - nwiswell 3y ago
    It's difficult to imagine that it wasn't recorded well before it even reached the vault. Firms like Garda inventory cash in excruciating detail as a matter of standard procedure, since otherwise it would rapidly disappear into employee pockets.
    - lazide 3y ago
      There is a big difference in labor between confirming sealed bundles of cash are intact, counting the bills, and tracking every serial number of each bill. Considering how ‘cost efficient’ they were being on security, hard to imagine they were maintaining detailed databases of each serial number for this cash. These are the same folks that bitch and whine over $.25/hr raises for their employees.
      - nwiswell 3y ago
        > There is a big difference in labor between confirming sealed bundles of cash are intact, counting the bills, and tracking every serial number of each bill. There are machines for this. Garda absolutely has them.
        lazide 3y ago
        There are also non shitty security systems. Garda absolutely has them. They just didn’t have them installed here for whatever insane reason.
gosub100 3y ago
I'm thinking a simultaneous laundering at Vegas, Atlantic City, and other gaming venues could launder tons. Drop a few hundred into a slot machine, play a few games, hit cash out. Take the ticket to a cash dispenser machine and leave.
- yieldcrv 3y ago
  Personally I think this is viable, but the sister comment rebuttal is that the stolen cash serial numbers would be flagged I don’t think they would be but I’m trying to play along and work around that too
  - gosub100 3y ago
    The bill validator in the slot machine will not flag a serial number. It won't be caught until the bills hit the bank. But once they deduced that casinos were being used, Barney Fife would be hot on the trail.
    - yieldcrv 3y ago
      So what’s the solution? Casinos file currency transaction reports over $10k and trying to stay under $10k is illegal structuring too, if flagged There is still a trail with that method. there are gaps in the AML/KYC framework but I don’t think this a good one
      - gosub100 3y ago
        I am not suggesting going over $10k at the cashier's desk. The automated ticket cashing machines can easily handle $500-$1k amounts. I'm also not suggesting all $30MM could be washed in one casino in one day. I do think a few people could wash $100k in a day or 2, depending on the size of the operation. 2 edits: wash isn't really the right word because you still can't prove where you got it. Secondly, you'd potentially be showing yourself on video so that's a significant risk.
        3y ago

sschueller 3y ago

The US sent pallets of cash to Iraq and that disappeared so a mere 30 Million won't be very hard.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bryanrasmussen 3y ago
governments have significantly greater abilities to disappear cash than private citizens.
- spacecadet 3y ago
  yeah they literally print the shit
  - euroderf 3y ago
    Too much work and specialized equipment. Pallets are simpler.
duped 3y ago
It's not like that money was stolen though, it was spent without any kind of controls. The Pentagon disappears far more than $20 billion, the fact it was cash and the logistics in getting it to Iraq and out of the hands of the military is the only interesting part. And it's not really that surprising imo. If you need to pay translators, contractors, bribe local officials or collaborators, assets, etc in a country that doesn't have a functioning banking system you need cash. And it's quicker to deliver some pallets with a C-130 and have guys dump it into duffel bags for whatever they need then to ask Congress nicely to set up bank transfers.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  > It's not like that money was stolen though, it was spent without any kind of controls. Even the USG says $6B+ was probably stolen. https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/takeaway/segments/140471-iraqs-missing-money-real-whodunit https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/takeaway/segments/14047...

cobertos 3y ago

What do you mean? The next largest LA heist was caught because they couldn't disperse of the cash properly [1]. It's hard to spend that much money with seemingly no income stream without the IRS raising a few eyebrows. You would need a lot of planning and coordination on how it's spent and where it's spent to make it look legit. And have enough untainted income to live while you plan on how to spend the tainted stuff. [1]: https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2022-01-05/dunbar-armored-heist-revisited-how-the-crew-got-caught-essential-california https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2022-01-05/dun...

retentionissue 3y ago
Hawala, habibi.
BoardsOfCanada 3y ago
From the article you linked it sounds more like a vehicle used to transport the money during or immediately after the robbery was what led the police to them. "Despite the daring robbery, what ended up solving it was not that exciting: An informant identified Hill as the person who rented a 14-foot U-Haul truck a day before the heist and had returned it a day later."
gosub100 3y ago
I find it hard to believe they could meticulously plan the tactical aspects of this heist but not plan for how to launder the loot. Since US cash is accepted abroad (and has more buying power) my guess is exporting it is the plan. If I were the cops I'd check Google maps records to see who was looking at the satellite view of the area before the heist.