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The solution is unironically just to do what China does. Create restrictions on how long kids can use the web and what they can use. It won't be perfect but it

The solution is unironically just to do what China does. Create restrictions on how long kids can use the web and what they can use. It won't be perfect but it will be the biggest influence towards better habits and cultural norms.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
Jonathan Haidt, the author of this article, was on Real Time w Bill Maher recently, and has some simple recommendations with respect to phones and social media: 1. No smartphones for kids before high school — give them only flip phones in middle school. 2. No social media before age 16. 3. Make schools phone-free, by putting devices in phone lockers or Yondr pouches. 4. Give kids far more free play and independence, including more and better recess. I can't argue with any of the above.
- cedws 3y ago
  Why 16 specifically? Apparently the brain doesn't stop developing until much later, around 25.
  - verall 3y ago
    The brain never stops developing, why 25? Where does everyone get this darn 25 is when you're grown number from?
    - cedws 3y ago
      The commonly cited number refers to when the brain structures stop/slow development, not the halting of skills or knowledge growth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_brain_development_timeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_brain_development_timeli...
      - verall 3y ago
        Literally from that wiki article: > There is no actual evidence suggesting that impulse control only finishes developing in humans in the twenties. It is a common misconception in popular psychology that the brain only fully develops by 25.[13] This may stem from a misinterpretation or oversimplification of studies which determined that development of the prefrontal cortex continues into the mid-twenties
        cedws 3y ago
        Yes, I read it. The sentence before seems to imply that there is some change of rate of development around that age: >Human brain maturation continues to around 20[10] to 25[11] and even up to 30[12] years of age and beyond.
        verall 3y ago
        I dunno, I don't think it implies that at all. It seems to imply that scientists have confirmed that growth is still occurring at that point, and not the other way around, especially given the rest of the article.
    - hadlock 3y ago
      Until recently, most people had kids by the time they were 25 and it's hard to tell people who are in charge of raising other people, that they can't do something. You have to pick a cut off date somewhere. The chasm between 21 and 25 is vast, though.
    - Aerroon 3y ago
      It's a pop sci myth that has been repeated enough times that it has a life of its own. It's a meme.
  - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
    He explains the details in his book, https://jonathanhaidt.com/anxious-generation/ https://jonathanhaidt.com/anxious-generation/, but I think the gist of it is that his recommendations are reasonable and actionable. Below age 16 it seems quite possible, policy-wise and parent-wise, to keep kids off social media. But the older they get the more they would push back (being teenagers after all). Saying something like "no social media until 25" would immediately have people discount Haidt's rational policy solutions as something not practically achievable, never mind probably not legal either.
  - locopati 3y ago
    while it may be structurally true, that doesn't say anything about the development of impulse control https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/brain-development-25-year-old-mature-myth.html https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/brain-development-25-ye...
  - goatlover 3y ago
    So you want to ban smart phones for young adults? Good luck with that.
  - an_aparallel 3y ago
    i read today in Peter Sterling's - What is Health?... that the brain doesnt stop maturing until 45...i dont think social media is good for anyone - at any time.
  - Glyptodon 3y ago
    I mean it's a standard age for allowing privileges (driving) to start in the US at least.
- AlexandrB 3y ago
  I don't get how phones became acceptable in schools. Imagine bringing a GameBoy into class in the 90s. It'd be taken away instantly.
  - asciimov 3y ago
    Helicopter parents and PTA Karens that just have to be able to connect to their kids at all hours. But also, 80s/90s stranger danger and all the school shootings.
    - etrautmann 3y ago
      Yeah - it pains me to say this is exactly right. Security concerns trump rationality too often.
    - miki123211 3y ago
      Stranger danger and school shootings never really happened outside the U.S., and this is not an America-specific problem. I think phones got through the "back door". When the first cell phones came around, not many kids took them to school, but the only thing they could actually use them for was contacting their friends/parents during breaks, so there was no reason to ban them. A Gameboy was specifically an entertainment device, an old cell phone was more like a flashlight or a watch, something which could presumably be used as a toy, but usually was not. Then, cell phones got cheaper, more kids got them, but they also got more advanced. In the feature phone era, a lot of kids had phones already, but the balance of genuine communication versus amusement was still leaning towards communication. This changed very rapidly, and at a time where phones in schools were already ubiquitous, though their use in class might not have been.
      - nerdponx 3y ago
        Plenty of kids in high school were BBM/texting during class on their flip phones, Sidekicks, etc. They were told not to do it, but they did it anyway under the desk. Only a handful of strong-willed teachers actually took the phones away. However none of the younger kids did that kind of thing.
- bigstrat2003 3y ago
  As usual, Haidt is spot on. There's no reason a child should have a smartphone, or be on social media having the algorithms warp their brains. Honestly I would say kids shouldn't have phones at all, except that these days they can't easily find public phones to call their parents (unlike when we were kids). But solving that problem certainly doesn't require a smartphone.
pfisch 3y ago
I think this is too far, but you should have to be 18 to post on social media, except chat rooms like discord. Frankly, social media should maybe be highly regulated like prescription drugs. A lot of people can't handle social media and it is tearing democracy apart.
- yieldcrv 3y ago
  we could regulate feedback loops, "the algorithm"
  - BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
    Wait yeah that sounds like the solution. The actual behavior of companies is easy to regulate and requires no great firewall. Just stop them from doing the most addictive stuff and it’ll almost certainly help a ton of people.
    - pfisch 3y ago
      idk, I think we need to do more to control who can and can't post on social media. I don't see how the 1st amendment would ever allow it but serial liars and scammers should be more limited in their ability to spread their garbage. People who have defamation or fraud judgements against them shouldn't be allowed to post on social media for 5-10 years following the judgement. Also we should place pretty severe limits on anonymity for posting on social media.
      - BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
        I like something about anonymity despite all the downsides, and that’s the honesty. I think the most anonymous spaces on the internet are also full of the most honest actors (though they’re usually terrible people). When I say honest here I mean they’ll tell you exactly what they’re doing and what they want. I don’t know if pushing those people into quiet helps the issue.
hot_gril 3y ago
This is what I'll do for my kids, but that's my own choice.
tayo42 3y ago
Are Chinese people happier then Americans or Europeans?
- zipping1549 3y ago
  Do you think that the only factor to that variable is the usage of social media?
  - tayo42 3y ago
    is the article more or less saying that? is the west and our way of living perfect other then our social media use. I dont think so, but seeing how chinese people under those circumstances view their lives and satisfaction with their social lives, etc would be one more data point in a complicated problem
- worthless-trash 3y ago
  We as a society need to stop associating happiness with good mental health. Sadly contentment doesn't sound as good, but is a better measure of emotional state.
  - worthless-trash 3y ago
    For those who disagree with me speak up, just dont downvote, or I will assume that you are mentally weak and unable to back your emotional outburst.
- imp0cat 3y ago
  Definitely. They have to.
firstplacelast 3y ago
Or we could not do that and mint more millionaires.
spxneo 3y ago
Ah but you see the problem with West is that it fears and mistrusts any type of government interference but okay with covert surveillance (because im not a terrorist). The truth is Asian merit based dictatorship has transformed farm lands to economic giants within a generation, stable, peaceful society. Singapore wouldn't be where it is without government intervention. South Korea would've never been able to create Samsung without military rule. Japan certainly would not have survived a full open democracy. Taiwan wouldn't have lived to see TSMC without Chiang Kai Shek. But China's model is not based on merit but on lineage. This is why that society will never be stable, peaceful like its neighbours. It's actually a lot worse than Western democracy and should serve as a warning to those that wish to experiment with benevolent dictatorship without merit.
- rangestransform 3y ago
  fwiw i'm not ok with either overt government interference or covert warrantless surveillance
  - spxneo 3y ago
    1) escape The Five Guys country via acquiring citizenship in a non-Five Guys country with a small government. I don't know which ones out there hasn't signed a treaty with Five Guys besides China & Russia (not very popular) 2) escape countries with overt government interference wary of western liberal progressivism/multiculturalism very little places to go in this world, pros & cons
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      > escape The Five Guys country [...] a non-Five Guys country I suspect you are referring to something else here. Five Guys: https://www.fiveguys.com/ https://www.fiveguys.com/ Five Eyes: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes
rangestransform 3y ago
better habits and cultural norms is not the business of the state to enforce

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

Jonathan Haidt, the author of this article, was on Real Time w Bill Maher recently, and has some simple recommendations with respect to phones and social media: 1. No smartphones for kids before high school — give them only flip phones in middle school. 2. No social media before age 16. 3. Make schools phone-free, by putting devices in phone lockers or Yondr pouches. 4. Give kids far more free play and independence, including more and better recess. I can't argue with any of the above.

cedws 3y ago
Why 16 specifically? Apparently the brain doesn't stop developing until much later, around 25.
- verall 3y ago
  The brain never stops developing, why 25? Where does everyone get this darn 25 is when you're grown number from?
  - cedws 3y ago
    The commonly cited number refers to when the brain structures stop/slow development, not the halting of skills or knowledge growth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_brain_development_timeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_brain_development_timeli...
    - verall 3y ago
      Literally from that wiki article: > There is no actual evidence suggesting that impulse control only finishes developing in humans in the twenties. It is a common misconception in popular psychology that the brain only fully develops by 25.[13] This may stem from a misinterpretation or oversimplification of studies which determined that development of the prefrontal cortex continues into the mid-twenties
      - cedws 3y ago
        Yes, I read it. The sentence before seems to imply that there is some change of rate of development around that age: >Human brain maturation continues to around 20[10] to 25[11] and even up to 30[12] years of age and beyond.
        verall 3y ago
        I dunno, I don't think it implies that at all. It seems to imply that scientists have confirmed that growth is still occurring at that point, and not the other way around, especially given the rest of the article.
  - hadlock 3y ago
    Until recently, most people had kids by the time they were 25 and it's hard to tell people who are in charge of raising other people, that they can't do something. You have to pick a cut off date somewhere. The chasm between 21 and 25 is vast, though.
  - Aerroon 3y ago
    It's a pop sci myth that has been repeated enough times that it has a life of its own. It's a meme.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  He explains the details in his book, https://jonathanhaidt.com/anxious-generation/ https://jonathanhaidt.com/anxious-generation/, but I think the gist of it is that his recommendations are reasonable and actionable. Below age 16 it seems quite possible, policy-wise and parent-wise, to keep kids off social media. But the older they get the more they would push back (being teenagers after all). Saying something like "no social media until 25" would immediately have people discount Haidt's rational policy solutions as something not practically achievable, never mind probably not legal either.
- locopati 3y ago
  while it may be structurally true, that doesn't say anything about the development of impulse control https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/brain-development-25-year-old-mature-myth.html https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/brain-development-25-ye...
- goatlover 3y ago
  So you want to ban smart phones for young adults? Good luck with that.
- an_aparallel 3y ago
  i read today in Peter Sterling's - What is Health?... that the brain doesnt stop maturing until 45...i dont think social media is good for anyone - at any time.
- Glyptodon 3y ago
  I mean it's a standard age for allowing privileges (driving) to start in the US at least.
AlexandrB 3y ago
I don't get how phones became acceptable in schools. Imagine bringing a GameBoy into class in the 90s. It'd be taken away instantly.
- asciimov 3y ago
  Helicopter parents and PTA Karens that just have to be able to connect to their kids at all hours. But also, 80s/90s stranger danger and all the school shootings.
  - etrautmann 3y ago
    Yeah - it pains me to say this is exactly right. Security concerns trump rationality too often.
  - miki123211 3y ago
    Stranger danger and school shootings never really happened outside the U.S., and this is not an America-specific problem. I think phones got through the "back door". When the first cell phones came around, not many kids took them to school, but the only thing they could actually use them for was contacting their friends/parents during breaks, so there was no reason to ban them. A Gameboy was specifically an entertainment device, an old cell phone was more like a flashlight or a watch, something which could presumably be used as a toy, but usually was not. Then, cell phones got cheaper, more kids got them, but they also got more advanced. In the feature phone era, a lot of kids had phones already, but the balance of genuine communication versus amusement was still leaning towards communication. This changed very rapidly, and at a time where phones in schools were already ubiquitous, though their use in class might not have been.
    - nerdponx 3y ago
      Plenty of kids in high school were BBM/texting during class on their flip phones, Sidekicks, etc. They were told not to do it, but they did it anyway under the desk. Only a handful of strong-willed teachers actually took the phones away. However none of the younger kids did that kind of thing.
bigstrat2003 3y ago
As usual, Haidt is spot on. There's no reason a child should have a smartphone, or be on social media having the algorithms warp their brains. Honestly I would say kids shouldn't have phones at all, except that these days they can't easily find public phones to call their parents (unlike when we were kids). But solving that problem certainly doesn't require a smartphone.

pfisch 3y ago

I think this is too far, but you should have to be 18 to post on social media, except chat rooms like discord. Frankly, social media should maybe be highly regulated like prescription drugs. A lot of people can't handle social media and it is tearing democracy apart.

yieldcrv 3y ago
we could regulate feedback loops, "the algorithm"
- BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
  Wait yeah that sounds like the solution. The actual behavior of companies is easy to regulate and requires no great firewall. Just stop them from doing the most addictive stuff and it’ll almost certainly help a ton of people.
  - pfisch 3y ago
    idk, I think we need to do more to control who can and can't post on social media. I don't see how the 1st amendment would ever allow it but serial liars and scammers should be more limited in their ability to spread their garbage. People who have defamation or fraud judgements against them shouldn't be allowed to post on social media for 5-10 years following the judgement. Also we should place pretty severe limits on anonymity for posting on social media.
    - BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
      I like something about anonymity despite all the downsides, and that’s the honesty. I think the most anonymous spaces on the internet are also full of the most honest actors (though they’re usually terrible people). When I say honest here I mean they’ll tell you exactly what they’re doing and what they want. I don’t know if pushing those people into quiet helps the issue.

hot_gril 3y ago

This is what I'll do for my kids, but that's my own choice.

tayo42 3y ago

Are Chinese people happier then Americans or Europeans?

zipping1549 3y ago
Do you think that the only factor to that variable is the usage of social media?
- tayo42 3y ago
  is the article more or less saying that? is the west and our way of living perfect other then our social media use. I dont think so, but seeing how chinese people under those circumstances view their lives and satisfaction with their social lives, etc would be one more data point in a complicated problem
worthless-trash 3y ago
We as a society need to stop associating happiness with good mental health. Sadly contentment doesn't sound as good, but is a better measure of emotional state.
- worthless-trash 3y ago
  For those who disagree with me speak up, just dont downvote, or I will assume that you are mentally weak and unable to back your emotional outburst.
imp0cat 3y ago
Definitely. They have to.

firstplacelast 3y ago

Or we could not do that and mint more millionaires.

spxneo 3y ago

Ah but you see the problem with West is that it fears and mistrusts any type of government interference but okay with covert surveillance (because im not a terrorist). The truth is Asian merit based dictatorship has transformed farm lands to economic giants within a generation, stable, peaceful society. Singapore wouldn't be where it is without government intervention. South Korea would've never been able to create Samsung without military rule. Japan certainly would not have survived a full open democracy. Taiwan wouldn't have lived to see TSMC without Chiang Kai Shek. But China's model is not based on merit but on lineage. This is why that society will never be stable, peaceful like its neighbours. It's actually a lot worse than Western democracy and should serve as a warning to those that wish to experiment with benevolent dictatorship without merit.

rangestransform 3y ago
fwiw i'm not ok with either overt government interference or covert warrantless surveillance
- spxneo 3y ago
  1) escape The Five Guys country via acquiring citizenship in a non-Five Guys country with a small government. I don't know which ones out there hasn't signed a treaty with Five Guys besides China & Russia (not very popular) 2) escape countries with overt government interference wary of western liberal progressivism/multiculturalism very little places to go in this world, pros & cons
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > escape The Five Guys country [...] a non-Five Guys country I suspect you are referring to something else here. Five Guys: https://www.fiveguys.com/ https://www.fiveguys.com/ Five Eyes: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes

rangestransform 3y ago

better habits and cultural norms is not the business of the state to enforce