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Brussels - Paris (~300km): train 1:30hs, €109 flight 1:00hs (+ check in time and baggage pick up), ~$300 driving 3:30hs https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Brus

Brussels - Paris (~300km): train 1:30hs, €109 flight 1:00hs (+ check in time and baggage pick up), ~$300 driving 3:30hs https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Brussels,+Belgium/Paris,+France/@49.8464158,2.035581,8z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x47c3a4ed73c76867:0xc18b3a66787302a7!2m2!1d4.3571696!2d50.8476424!1m5!1m1!1s0x47e66e1f06e2b70f:0x40b82c3688c9460!2m2!1d2.3522219!2d48.856614!3e4?entry=ttu https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Brussels,+Belgium/Paris,+Fra... San Francisco - Sacramento (~85 miles): train: 2:30hs, $33 driving: 1:30hs

alephnerd 3y ago
San Francisco-Sacramento has a railway line built already (Capitol Corridor), and it is very intermittent. Furthermore, the Capitol Corridor doesn't pick you up from SF. You need to commute to the Amtrak station in Richmond. Bay Area to Sacramento is the farthest distance that can be financial feasible in the Western United States. A better use of money would be better integrating all of the Bay Area and San Joaquin Valley into a single high frequency system (think ACE on steroids).
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  So, San Francisco to Sacramento does not have a railway line already built (at least, not one with passenger service in use.) San Jose to Sacramento does, and there are some stations with other transit connections to SF, notably Richmond, but Richmond (like Oakland, or any of the other East Bay stops) is a different place than San Francisco. It is not so much generically “very intermittent” as optimized for Sacramento to East Bay commuting, with reduced traffic on the extended connection to San Jose, and in the counter-commute direction and off-commute times.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    Exactly! And it's almost impossible to cross coordinate between BART, Caltrain, Capitol Corridor, VTA, ACE, and other myriad of public transit systems in NorCal. I've literally had to wait for Capitol Corridor trains for an hour because my Bart ride was delayed. This is why money is better spent integrating the systems at the subregional level instead.
    - estebank 3y ago
      I believe it is a case of "yes, and". A significant benefit of Rail transport is when you can go to the train station from your home by public transport, and when you arrive to your destination city in a place where you can take public transport to your final destination. Good public transport has many benefits and should be prioritized. I'm baffled that there are large American airports that have no connectivity to public transport at all. Just improving that would already be significant. That doesn't mean that rail isn't worthwhile to pursue: SF to LA makes sense (mountain ranges are not necessarily relevant, that's the reason it goes the "long way" through the central valley, lack of density in between isn't as relevant because HSR has very infrequent stops in between destinations, having a handful of stops in the central valley would be enough to cater to those low population centers that don't wish to drive the full way), but if when you arrive to LA you have to rent a car to get around, that reduces the benefit or rail.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > it's almost impossible to cross coordinate between BART, Caltrain These are easy. They even both take Clipper. > money is better spent integrating the systems at the subregional level Totally agree. Even just making San Francisco better traversed by public transit than car would be a blessing.
      - alephnerd 3y ago
        > These are easy Timing is an issue. I'd say 40% of the time I ever took Caltrain, I missed the Bart connection at Millbrae, adding either 25 minutes to the commute, or adding an additional $15-20 dollars. Also pricing isn't integrated. While they all take Clipper, funds are not coalesced together. I cannot use clipper cash to pay for a caltrain ride and vice versa. Clipper is like a crappy Oyster knockoff.
        psanford 3y ago
        > I cannot use clipper cash to pay for a caltrain ride and vice versa. You absolutely can use cash on your clipper card to pay for a one way caltrain ride. Likewise Bart and Muni are integrated in SF. My muni monthly pass includes bart rides in the city.
  - hadlock 3y ago
    In addition, there is no pedestrian walkway between san francisco and either marin (north bay) or oakland (east bay) depite both being major commuter hubs. 7 miles is a long ways to walk, but it's only about 30 min by bike, and even less by electric bike. You need a car or to find a bus that will take you to a rail line.
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      > In addition, there is no pedestrian walkway between san francisco and either marin (north bay) or oakland (east bay) depite both being major commuter hubs. The Golden Gate Bridge (San Francisco to Marin) does, in fact, have sidewalks. https://www.goldengate.org/bridge/visiting-the-bridge/bikes-pedestrians/ https://www.goldengate.org/bridge/visiting-the-bridge/bikes-... It’s true there is no pedestrian/bike connection from San Francisco to Oakland, and that seems unlikely to change (the main improvement planned there involves electric ferry service from SF to Treasure Island connecting to the East Span of the Bay Bridge. https://mtc.ca.gov/planning/transportation/bicycle-pedestrian-micromobility/bay-skyway https://mtc.ca.gov/planning/transportation/bicycle-pedestria... > You need a car or to find a bus that will take you to a rail line. Or you can take a train that takes you to the other rail line (in the East Bay, but then there’s not much rail to connect to in Marin anyway); BART is a thing.

alephnerd 3y ago

San Francisco-Sacramento has a railway line built already (Capitol Corridor), and it is very intermittent. Furthermore, the Capitol Corridor doesn't pick you up from SF. You need to commute to the Amtrak station in Richmond. Bay Area to Sacramento is the farthest distance that can be financial feasible in the Western United States. A better use of money would be better integrating all of the Bay Area and San Joaquin Valley into a single high frequency system (think ACE on steroids).

dragonwriter 3y ago
So, San Francisco to Sacramento does not have a railway line already built (at least, not one with passenger service in use.) San Jose to Sacramento does, and there are some stations with other transit connections to SF, notably Richmond, but Richmond (like Oakland, or any of the other East Bay stops) is a different place than San Francisco. It is not so much generically “very intermittent” as optimized for Sacramento to East Bay commuting, with reduced traffic on the extended connection to San Jose, and in the counter-commute direction and off-commute times.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  Exactly! And it's almost impossible to cross coordinate between BART, Caltrain, Capitol Corridor, VTA, ACE, and other myriad of public transit systems in NorCal. I've literally had to wait for Capitol Corridor trains for an hour because my Bart ride was delayed. This is why money is better spent integrating the systems at the subregional level instead.
  - estebank 3y ago
    I believe it is a case of "yes, and". A significant benefit of Rail transport is when you can go to the train station from your home by public transport, and when you arrive to your destination city in a place where you can take public transport to your final destination. Good public transport has many benefits and should be prioritized. I'm baffled that there are large American airports that have no connectivity to public transport at all. Just improving that would already be significant. That doesn't mean that rail isn't worthwhile to pursue: SF to LA makes sense (mountain ranges are not necessarily relevant, that's the reason it goes the "long way" through the central valley, lack of density in between isn't as relevant because HSR has very infrequent stops in between destinations, having a handful of stops in the central valley would be enough to cater to those low population centers that don't wish to drive the full way), but if when you arrive to LA you have to rent a car to get around, that reduces the benefit or rail.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > it's almost impossible to cross coordinate between BART, Caltrain These are easy. They even both take Clipper. > money is better spent integrating the systems at the subregional level Totally agree. Even just making San Francisco better traversed by public transit than car would be a blessing.
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      > These are easy Timing is an issue. I'd say 40% of the time I ever took Caltrain, I missed the Bart connection at Millbrae, adding either 25 minutes to the commute, or adding an additional $15-20 dollars. Also pricing isn't integrated. While they all take Clipper, funds are not coalesced together. I cannot use clipper cash to pay for a caltrain ride and vice versa. Clipper is like a crappy Oyster knockoff.
      - psanford 3y ago
        > I cannot use clipper cash to pay for a caltrain ride and vice versa. You absolutely can use cash on your clipper card to pay for a one way caltrain ride. Likewise Bart and Muni are integrated in SF. My muni monthly pass includes bart rides in the city.
- hadlock 3y ago
  In addition, there is no pedestrian walkway between san francisco and either marin (north bay) or oakland (east bay) depite both being major commuter hubs. 7 miles is a long ways to walk, but it's only about 30 min by bike, and even less by electric bike. You need a car or to find a bus that will take you to a rail line.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > In addition, there is no pedestrian walkway between san francisco and either marin (north bay) or oakland (east bay) depite both being major commuter hubs. The Golden Gate Bridge (San Francisco to Marin) does, in fact, have sidewalks. https://www.goldengate.org/bridge/visiting-the-bridge/bikes-pedestrians/ https://www.goldengate.org/bridge/visiting-the-bridge/bikes-... It’s true there is no pedestrian/bike connection from San Francisco to Oakland, and that seems unlikely to change (the main improvement planned there involves electric ferry service from SF to Treasure Island connecting to the East Span of the Bay Bridge. https://mtc.ca.gov/planning/transportation/bicycle-pedestrian-micromobility/bay-skyway https://mtc.ca.gov/planning/transportation/bicycle-pedestria... > You need a car or to find a bus that will take you to a rail line. Or you can take a train that takes you to the other rail line (in the East Bay, but then there’s not much rail to connect to in Marin anyway); BART is a thing.