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>Anyway, I think it's important that nobody is left to their final resting place without witnesses, and I also find avoiding that is a good way to engage with y

>Anyway, I think it's important that nobody is left to their final resting place without witnesses, and I also find avoiding that is a good way to engage with your community... Funerals, like life, are for the living. The dead don't care -- they're dead. This seems like a ghoulish way to make oneself feel more compassionate and caring, and does absolutely nothing for the deceased. As I said, they're dead -- they don't care. That said, if using a dead person as as a prop to make you feel better about yourself, go for it. The dead person doesn't care -- they're dead. But pretending that it somehow makes a difference to the dead person is rather silly -- they're dead, they don't care. Edit: Fixed prose.

gedy 3y ago
I think you are coming from a belief system that makes this all pointless and cynical, but this is quite kind for people with some religious beliefs.
- Filligree 3y ago
  Well, it's kind to their relatives. Not to the person in question, given they're dead. The theory here is that the dead person is looking down from above? That works if the person giving the eulogy is also religious. If they aren't, then they shouldn't be believing that.
  - seabass-labrax 3y ago
    You don't necessarily need to be religious to have a belief in the afterlife, or at least a strong enough suspicion of it to want to be respectful. As an analogy, there's some evidence that people form memories when in a coma. Even if you can never prove that an individual is aware of you, it is still compassionate to assume that they can hear what you say about them.
  - wpietri 3y ago
    When you were a baby, many people were kind to you in ways that you don't remember. Was that also pointless? I also think this goes well beyond the relatives. Part of being in a society is caring for one another. Here I am on another continent, and I feel better that these people are taking a moment to mark someone's passing. If it doesn't matter to you, fine, you don't have to do it. But I don't get why you're putting so much energy into being negative about it.
- nobody9999 3y ago
  >but this is quite kind for people with some religious beliefs. Kind to whom? The people who don't come to such a funeral? The corpse? And that's not a rhetorical question, as I genuinely don't understand.
ziddoap 3y ago
>The dead don't care -- they're dead. We get it -- repeating it 4 times in 6 sentences is a lot. >That said, if using a dead person as as a prop to make you feel better about yourself, go for it. Yikes. Some people have different belief systems, some of those belief systems believe in the afterlife.
- Fnoord 3y ago
  > Yikes. Some people have different belief systems, some of those belief systems believe in the afterlife. That is fine, there are also people who follow the Flat Earth Society (with 'members all around the globe') or who follow the flying spaghetti monster (my wife is a card carrying member). Honestly, I actually thought for quite some time the Flat Earth Society was a joke. I wonder how many members consider it as such. Now, you may have such beliefs. They're not based on facts though. And when it comes to beliefs, you should prepare to get ridiculed as they're not fact-based. When you face such ridiculousness, you may stand fierce, and decide to prove your point. But if it is not a factual-based point, and you are unable to prove it, do not be surprised when you are not taken seriously. For me, belief is very simple. I am not going to believe in a God, and I only need to look at the suffering happening in one country in this world (which I am not going to name since the name is irrelevant). The immense suffering of people in this country, on both sides of the conflict, leads me to the simple conclusion that if there is a God it must be a cruel, conflicted being. Besides, why can these religious people not agree on the basics of their belief systems? Why would a loving God divide people like that? Instead, I take a more simple approach to God and Devil. They're just bastardizations of the words and concepts of good and evil, and that is it. Concepts which had to be enforced onto people when law was weak, unjust, and fundamental democratic principles like Trias Politica did not yet exist. As far as these concepts ever worked well to begin with, we no longer need God and Devil.
  - ziddoap 3y ago
    >And when it comes to beliefs, you should prepare to get ridiculed as they're not fact-based. You think it's fair game to ridicule people with other beliefs, I think that's sad. I don't believe in god. But I'm also not going to ridicule people, or tell them that they're "using a dead person as as a prop to make you feel better about yourself", if they do believe in god. Being smug about your fact-based beliefs, or whatever, is just dumb.
PreInternet01 3y ago
> using a dead person as as a prop to make you feel better about yourself No, "feel better" is definitely not what myself (nor anyone else involved in this program, as far as I'm aware) is trying to achieve here. I know that a deceased person doesn't care about pretty much anything. Yet, that doesn't preclude me from caring about them, does it?
- nobody9999 3y ago
  >I know that a deceased person doesn't care about pretty much anything. Yet, that doesn't preclude me from caring about them, does it? As I said: >Funerals, like life, are for the living. The dead don't care -- they're dead. As such, what you're doing isn't to benefit the dead. Nothing can benefit them. It's to benefit the living as I said. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's a lovely thing to do. But it doesn't benefit the dead in any way and pretending it does seems disingenuous IMHO. That said, knock yourself out. I have no issue with what you're doing.
michaelsbradley 3y ago
Burying the dead is, according to Christian belief, one of the corporal works of mercy: In the days of Shalmaneser I performed many acts of charity to my brethren. I would give my bread to the hungry and my clothing to the naked; and if I saw any one of my people dead and thrown out behind the wall of Nineveh, I would bury him. – Tobit 1:16-17 [RSV] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Tobit+1%3A16-17&version=RSV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Tobit+1%3A16-17... The bodies of the dead must be treated with respect and charity, in faith and hope of the Resurrection. The burial of the dead is a corporal work of mercy; it honors the children of God, who are temples of the Holy Spirit. – Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2300 http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2300 http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2300 Praying for the souls of the dead is one of the spiritual works of mercy: This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: "Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them." – Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 1032 http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#1032 http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#1032
- nobody9999 3y ago
  That's great. I don't have anything against any of the above. If that's what you (and/or others) choose to do, knock yourself out and more power to you. But argument from authority[0] isn't a real argument, especially since the tenets of the Catholic Church are based upon the idea that there's an invisible sky daddy somewhere who actually gives a rat's ass about humans. That's laughable at best and (as history has shown over[1] and over[2][3][4][5] again) often causes brutal, evil deeds to be done to others. So yeah, if an imaginary sky daddy fries your clams then, by all means, pay attention to what other believers in such fakery claim. And go right ahead -- I have no issue with it. But don't expect me to buy into that particular pile of horse manure. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Ayyadieh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Ayyadieh [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition [3] https://www.timesofisrael.com/20-years-before-the-holocaust-pogroms-killed-100000-jews-then-were-forgotten/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/20-years-before-the-holocaust-... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Verden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Verden
cseleborg 3y ago
But we'll all be dead one day! It's a compelling idea that if something happens to me and I lose touch with all my relatives, there might still be someone at my funeral.

gedy 3y ago

I think you are coming from a belief system that makes this all pointless and cynical, but this is quite kind for people with some religious beliefs.

Filligree 3y ago
Well, it's kind to their relatives. Not to the person in question, given they're dead. The theory here is that the dead person is looking down from above? That works if the person giving the eulogy is also religious. If they aren't, then they shouldn't be believing that.
- seabass-labrax 3y ago
  You don't necessarily need to be religious to have a belief in the afterlife, or at least a strong enough suspicion of it to want to be respectful. As an analogy, there's some evidence that people form memories when in a coma. Even if you can never prove that an individual is aware of you, it is still compassionate to assume that they can hear what you say about them.
- wpietri 3y ago
  When you were a baby, many people were kind to you in ways that you don't remember. Was that also pointless? I also think this goes well beyond the relatives. Part of being in a society is caring for one another. Here I am on another continent, and I feel better that these people are taking a moment to mark someone's passing. If it doesn't matter to you, fine, you don't have to do it. But I don't get why you're putting so much energy into being negative about it.
nobody9999 3y ago
>but this is quite kind for people with some religious beliefs. Kind to whom? The people who don't come to such a funeral? The corpse? And that's not a rhetorical question, as I genuinely don't understand.

ziddoap 3y ago

>The dead don't care -- they're dead. We get it -- repeating it 4 times in 6 sentences is a lot. >That said, if using a dead person as as a prop to make you feel better about yourself, go for it. Yikes. Some people have different belief systems, some of those belief systems believe in the afterlife.

Fnoord 3y ago
> Yikes. Some people have different belief systems, some of those belief systems believe in the afterlife. That is fine, there are also people who follow the Flat Earth Society (with 'members all around the globe') or who follow the flying spaghetti monster (my wife is a card carrying member). Honestly, I actually thought for quite some time the Flat Earth Society was a joke. I wonder how many members consider it as such. Now, you may have such beliefs. They're not based on facts though. And when it comes to beliefs, you should prepare to get ridiculed as they're not fact-based. When you face such ridiculousness, you may stand fierce, and decide to prove your point. But if it is not a factual-based point, and you are unable to prove it, do not be surprised when you are not taken seriously. For me, belief is very simple. I am not going to believe in a God, and I only need to look at the suffering happening in one country in this world (which I am not going to name since the name is irrelevant). The immense suffering of people in this country, on both sides of the conflict, leads me to the simple conclusion that if there is a God it must be a cruel, conflicted being. Besides, why can these religious people not agree on the basics of their belief systems? Why would a loving God divide people like that? Instead, I take a more simple approach to God and Devil. They're just bastardizations of the words and concepts of good and evil, and that is it. Concepts which had to be enforced onto people when law was weak, unjust, and fundamental democratic principles like Trias Politica did not yet exist. As far as these concepts ever worked well to begin with, we no longer need God and Devil.
- ziddoap 3y ago
  >And when it comes to beliefs, you should prepare to get ridiculed as they're not fact-based. You think it's fair game to ridicule people with other beliefs, I think that's sad. I don't believe in god. But I'm also not going to ridicule people, or tell them that they're "using a dead person as as a prop to make you feel better about yourself", if they do believe in god. Being smug about your fact-based beliefs, or whatever, is just dumb.

PreInternet01 3y ago

> using a dead person as as a prop to make you feel better about yourself No, "feel better" is definitely not what myself (nor anyone else involved in this program, as far as I'm aware) is trying to achieve here. I know that a deceased person doesn't care about pretty much anything. Yet, that doesn't preclude me from caring about them, does it?

nobody9999 3y ago
>I know that a deceased person doesn't care about pretty much anything. Yet, that doesn't preclude me from caring about them, does it? As I said: >Funerals, like life, are for the living. The dead don't care -- they're dead. As such, what you're doing isn't to benefit the dead. Nothing can benefit them. It's to benefit the living as I said. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's a lovely thing to do. But it doesn't benefit the dead in any way and pretending it does seems disingenuous IMHO. That said, knock yourself out. I have no issue with what you're doing.

michaelsbradley 3y ago

Burying the dead is, according to Christian belief, one of the corporal works of mercy: In the days of Shalmaneser I performed many acts of charity to my brethren. I would give my bread to the hungry and my clothing to the naked; and if I saw any one of my people dead and thrown out behind the wall of Nineveh, I would bury him. – Tobit 1:16-17 [RSV] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Tobit+1%3A16-17&version=RSV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Tobit+1%3A16-17... The bodies of the dead must be treated with respect and charity, in faith and hope of the Resurrection. The burial of the dead is a corporal work of mercy; it honors the children of God, who are temples of the Holy Spirit. – Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2300 http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2300 http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2300 Praying for the souls of the dead is one of the spiritual works of mercy: This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: "Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them." – Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 1032 http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#1032 http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#1032

nobody9999 3y ago
That's great. I don't have anything against any of the above. If that's what you (and/or others) choose to do, knock yourself out and more power to you. But argument from authority[0] isn't a real argument, especially since the tenets of the Catholic Church are based upon the idea that there's an invisible sky daddy somewhere who actually gives a rat's ass about humans. That's laughable at best and (as history has shown over[1] and over[2][3][4][5] again) often causes brutal, evil deeds to be done to others. So yeah, if an imaginary sky daddy fries your clams then, by all means, pay attention to what other believers in such fakery claim. And go right ahead -- I have no issue with it. But don't expect me to buy into that particular pile of horse manure. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Ayyadieh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Ayyadieh [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition [3] https://www.timesofisrael.com/20-years-before-the-holocaust-pogroms-killed-100000-jews-then-were-forgotten/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/20-years-before-the-holocaust-... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Verden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Verden

cseleborg 3y ago

But we'll all be dead one day! It's a compelling idea that if something happens to me and I lose touch with all my relatives, there might still be someone at my funeral.