5 ms·

I get confused by the way people use the word "forgiveness". For me, forgiveness can only occur when I understand someone's point of view and determine that th

I get confused by the way people use the word "forgiveness". For me, forgiveness can only occur when I understand someone's point of view and determine that there was information I wasn't aware of or they made a mistake and what they did isn't really who they are. But when I read about forgiveness it seems like people also use the term to refer to a process of gaslighting yourself and/or making up a fake story to detach yourself from reality. Frankly, I see a lot of therapy this way. Some people go through terrible things, and some people's lives suck, but a lot of therapy sounds like brainwashing yourself to deal with it.

idontpost 3y ago
[dead]
diputsmonro 3y ago
I would say that "brainwashing yourself to deal with it" actually is a useful therapeutic technique. Often the person who committed the offense can't be made to understand or care about the damage they've caused, and the next best thing then is to help the injured person move on as best they can. And while "brainwashing" sounds like an intellectually dishonest technique, we need to remember that the brain is not a perfectly logical instrument. The trauma that people seek help for carries an emotional toll usually in excess of the simple logical "disagreement". Therapy for such trauma is usually an emotional process, not a logical one. I would agree though that "forgiveness" is maybe not the best term for this.
- steanne 3y ago
  closure?
- Zolomon 3y ago
  I think part of the solution might be acceptance, that you can accept the situation and “forgive” the offender - which will relieve yourself of your feelings towards them, allowing yourself to let go and move on. Does that make sense?
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  > I would say that "brainwashing yourself to deal with it" actually is a useful therapeutic technique This is basically the foundation of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, or as I called it recently in another thread, "self gaslighting"
  - thejazzman 3y ago
    And for anyone who doubts it, just think about how effective marketing is on altering human behavior/perception. Imagine if all that effort was directed towards a different intent.
EPWN3D 3y ago
> Frankly, I see a lot of therapy this way. Some people go through terrible things, and some people's lives suck, but a lot of therapy sounds like brainwashing yourself to deal with it. If it works, then who cares? Maybe you were wronged, but maybe you don't want to go through life feeling that way, so you let it go by sympathizing with the person who wronged you. And you move on. There's a limited amount of justice you'll be able to get in life, so it's a good idea to pick your battles and not stew on every single sleight because you want to avoid "brainwashing" yourself.
- CooCooCaCha 3y ago
  I think there are ways to address trauma that don’t involve divorcing yourself from reality or forgiving someone who doesn’t deserve it.
  - Y_Y 3y ago
    And you've been keeping these ways to address trauma from the rest of the world? If people could feel better without forgiving their trespassers don't you think they'd be doing that instead?
    - CooCooCaCha 3y ago
      Are you a therapist, or are you acting like an armchair expert? Because my strategies come from an actual fucking therapist. The first thing to note is that time itself has healing properties. Putting physical and temporal distance from your trauma is beneficial. For example, cutting people out of your life. Beyond that treatment becomes more tailored to the individual. For example, I developed medically diagnosed "severe anxiety" from my childhood. So part of my healing process is learning to calm my nervous system because my default mode is hyper-vigilance. Every 15 minutes I get a notification on my phone reminding me to do two things: 1. Take a deep breath. This engages the parasympathetic nervous system and teaches me to self-soothe. 2. I ask myself "Who is hurting your right now?" and 95% of the time the answer is "nobody, everything is fine". This helps keep me grounded in the present moment. Note that NONE of this involves divorcing myself from reality. In-fact, it's the opposite.
barrkel 3y ago
You can't change the past. The opposite of forgiveness is hanging on to a past hurt. Past hurt cannot be changed. Forgiveness isn't gaslighting, making up a fake story, or brainwashing. It's letting go of something you can't change.
- CooCooCaCha 3y ago
  You present a false dichotomy. And I think there’s a difference between letting go and forgiveness. First of all, physical and temporal distance from trauma helps protect and heal from trauma. Secondly, often trauma leaves people with a warped mental state that can be addressed on its own. For example, treating anxiety that was developed from trauma. Thirdly, you can try to understand why your trauma occurred like “my dad beat me because his dad beat him”. Some might say this is part of forgiveness but imo there’s a big difference between understanding why someone did something and forgiving them.
  - barrkel 3y ago
    I'm not really talking about trauma or anxiety. I'm talking about a feeling of resentment and anger directed at the other - the kindling for that flame of anger is past injustice. Letting go of this is forgiveness, I think. It's specifically the injustice, rather than the hurt, that is keeps resentment alive. "It's not fair!" is the rallying cry. Hurt heals and lessens with time. But feelings can be nursed, indulged, prolonged, and inflamed. Understanding operates on a different plane to emotions. Intellectually you can understand why something happened, but that doesn't necessarily have an effect on your emotions. Emotions seem to have a life of their own, if you don't take responsibility for them. And of course that's a key part of growing up, of maturity: emotional regulation. You might use intellectual understanding as a rationale for regulating feelings of resentment, but it's neither necessary nor sufficient. You do need an act of will to let resentment go. And I think this is the core of forgiveness.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
dbspin 3y ago
The route of the word forgive is from early German, 'fragebaną'. Meaning to release or give up. Forgiveness is not about understanding the motivation of the person who's hurt you. Nor is it about their penitence - although both can make forgiveness easier. Forgiveness is about letting go of the anger and resentment that continue to cause pain, long after the offending action is over (and even after the offender is dead). The purpose of forgiveness is not 'brainwashing' or detachment from reality. It's about letting go of suffering to proceed through life with less pain. Which allows us to be kinder and more humane people, since we're no longer at risk of externalising our own suffering.
- barfbagginus 3y ago
  Forgiveness is about understanding the cause of the injury, correcting the damage, mitigating future risks, and restoring emotional stability /once those things are resolved/. The first three are necessary conditions for effective forgiveness. For instance, it's ineffective to forgive a spouse who continually beats you. It may allow you to paper over your emotions and have a semblance of peace. However it doesn't prevent the next attack or correct the damages. You need to get to the bottom of why this person thinks it's okay to beat you, or you need to get to a place where you'll be safe. Delusional forgiveness can get you killed in this situation. So please do not advise people to deploy forgiveness without the three necessary conditions: cause, correction, and mitigation. Your advice may cause them to ignore options for active forgiveness that will genuinely increase their safety and prevent future harm Example: Someone you care for has been raped, and feels the need to seek justice. You tell them how that will just cause them more pain and probably lead to no conviction, and offer them the idea that they can simply forgive the attacker and move on, as the more mature and healthy alternative. In that case you have not given advocacy to the person you cared for. You have advocated on behalf of the rapist. I'll reierate my thesis. Effective forgiveness has 3 material parts required to make emotional release safe and effective: 1. Modelling the cause of harm 2. Compensating the harm done 3. Mitigating future harm Please do not advocate for forgiveness without advocating for these three components. Forgiveness without material changes creates further harm.
  - dbspin 3y ago
Lendal 3y ago
If your history was so traumatic that you cannot forget and you cannot move on, then your only option, assuming you want to salvage what remains of your life, is to change it. Change your history. Is it cheating? Yes. But what is the alternative? You want to continue to live with the misery and suffering? It's not ever going to go away. Those kinds of memories do not fade. Time alone does not heal anything, and you only get one life. Do whatever you can do to salvage it.
- fragmede 3y ago
  Given the success of MDMA-assisted therapy for treating PTSD in studies, there's hope that traumatic memories can be made less traumatic.

idontpost 3y ago

[dead]

diputsmonro 3y ago

I would say that "brainwashing yourself to deal with it" actually is a useful therapeutic technique. Often the person who committed the offense can't be made to understand or care about the damage they've caused, and the next best thing then is to help the injured person move on as best they can. And while "brainwashing" sounds like an intellectually dishonest technique, we need to remember that the brain is not a perfectly logical instrument. The trauma that people seek help for carries an emotional toll usually in excess of the simple logical "disagreement". Therapy for such trauma is usually an emotional process, not a logical one. I would agree though that "forgiveness" is maybe not the best term for this.

steanne 3y ago
closure?
Zolomon 3y ago
I think part of the solution might be acceptance, that you can accept the situation and “forgive” the offender - which will relieve yourself of your feelings towards them, allowing yourself to let go and move on. Does that make sense?
bluefirebrand 3y ago
> I would say that "brainwashing yourself to deal with it" actually is a useful therapeutic technique This is basically the foundation of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, or as I called it recently in another thread, "self gaslighting"
- thejazzman 3y ago
  And for anyone who doubts it, just think about how effective marketing is on altering human behavior/perception. Imagine if all that effort was directed towards a different intent.

EPWN3D 3y ago

> Frankly, I see a lot of therapy this way. Some people go through terrible things, and some people's lives suck, but a lot of therapy sounds like brainwashing yourself to deal with it. If it works, then who cares? Maybe you were wronged, but maybe you don't want to go through life feeling that way, so you let it go by sympathizing with the person who wronged you. And you move on. There's a limited amount of justice you'll be able to get in life, so it's a good idea to pick your battles and not stew on every single sleight because you want to avoid "brainwashing" yourself.

CooCooCaCha 3y ago
I think there are ways to address trauma that don’t involve divorcing yourself from reality or forgiving someone who doesn’t deserve it.
- Y_Y 3y ago
  And you've been keeping these ways to address trauma from the rest of the world? If people could feel better without forgiving their trespassers don't you think they'd be doing that instead?
  - CooCooCaCha 3y ago
    Are you a therapist, or are you acting like an armchair expert? Because my strategies come from an actual fucking therapist. The first thing to note is that time itself has healing properties. Putting physical and temporal distance from your trauma is beneficial. For example, cutting people out of your life. Beyond that treatment becomes more tailored to the individual. For example, I developed medically diagnosed "severe anxiety" from my childhood. So part of my healing process is learning to calm my nervous system because my default mode is hyper-vigilance. Every 15 minutes I get a notification on my phone reminding me to do two things: 1. Take a deep breath. This engages the parasympathetic nervous system and teaches me to self-soothe. 2. I ask myself "Who is hurting your right now?" and 95% of the time the answer is "nobody, everything is fine". This helps keep me grounded in the present moment. Note that NONE of this involves divorcing myself from reality. In-fact, it's the opposite.

barrkel 3y ago

You can't change the past. The opposite of forgiveness is hanging on to a past hurt. Past hurt cannot be changed. Forgiveness isn't gaslighting, making up a fake story, or brainwashing. It's letting go of something you can't change.

CooCooCaCha 3y ago
You present a false dichotomy. And I think there’s a difference between letting go and forgiveness. First of all, physical and temporal distance from trauma helps protect and heal from trauma. Secondly, often trauma leaves people with a warped mental state that can be addressed on its own. For example, treating anxiety that was developed from trauma. Thirdly, you can try to understand why your trauma occurred like “my dad beat me because his dad beat him”. Some might say this is part of forgiveness but imo there’s a big difference between understanding why someone did something and forgiving them.
- barrkel 3y ago
  I'm not really talking about trauma or anxiety. I'm talking about a feeling of resentment and anger directed at the other - the kindling for that flame of anger is past injustice. Letting go of this is forgiveness, I think. It's specifically the injustice, rather than the hurt, that is keeps resentment alive. "It's not fair!" is the rallying cry. Hurt heals and lessens with time. But feelings can be nursed, indulged, prolonged, and inflamed. Understanding operates on a different plane to emotions. Intellectually you can understand why something happened, but that doesn't necessarily have an effect on your emotions. Emotions seem to have a life of their own, if you don't take responsibility for them. And of course that's a key part of growing up, of maturity: emotional regulation. You might use intellectual understanding as a rationale for regulating feelings of resentment, but it's neither necessary nor sufficient. You do need an act of will to let resentment go. And I think this is the core of forgiveness.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

dbspin 3y ago

The route of the word forgive is from early German, 'fragebaną'. Meaning to release or give up. Forgiveness is not about understanding the motivation of the person who's hurt you. Nor is it about their penitence - although both can make forgiveness easier. Forgiveness is about letting go of the anger and resentment that continue to cause pain, long after the offending action is over (and even after the offender is dead). The purpose of forgiveness is not 'brainwashing' or detachment from reality. It's about letting go of suffering to proceed through life with less pain. Which allows us to be kinder and more humane people, since we're no longer at risk of externalising our own suffering.

barfbagginus 3y ago
Forgiveness is about understanding the cause of the injury, correcting the damage, mitigating future risks, and restoring emotional stability /once those things are resolved/. The first three are necessary conditions for effective forgiveness. For instance, it's ineffective to forgive a spouse who continually beats you. It may allow you to paper over your emotions and have a semblance of peace. However it doesn't prevent the next attack or correct the damages. You need to get to the bottom of why this person thinks it's okay to beat you, or you need to get to a place where you'll be safe. Delusional forgiveness can get you killed in this situation. So please do not advise people to deploy forgiveness without the three necessary conditions: cause, correction, and mitigation. Your advice may cause them to ignore options for active forgiveness that will genuinely increase their safety and prevent future harm Example: Someone you care for has been raped, and feels the need to seek justice. You tell them how that will just cause them more pain and probably lead to no conviction, and offer them the idea that they can simply forgive the attacker and move on, as the more mature and healthy alternative. In that case you have not given advocacy to the person you cared for. You have advocated on behalf of the rapist. I'll reierate my thesis. Effective forgiveness has 3 material parts required to make emotional release safe and effective: 1. Modelling the cause of harm 2. Compensating the harm done 3. Mitigating future harm Please do not advocate for forgiveness without advocating for these three components. Forgiveness without material changes creates further harm.
- dbspin 3y ago

Lendal 3y ago

If your history was so traumatic that you cannot forget and you cannot move on, then your only option, assuming you want to salvage what remains of your life, is to change it. Change your history. Is it cheating? Yes. But what is the alternative? You want to continue to live with the misery and suffering? It's not ever going to go away. Those kinds of memories do not fade. Time alone does not heal anything, and you only get one life. Do whatever you can do to salvage it.

fragmede 3y ago
Given the success of MDMA-assisted therapy for treating PTSD in studies, there's hope that traumatic memories can be made less traumatic.