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The Black Market That Delivers Elon Musk's Starlinks to U.S. Foes

14 points by spenvo 3y ago

spenvo 3y ago
Non-paywalled version https://www.wsj.com/business/telecom/starlink-musk-ukraine-russia-sudan-satellite-communications-technology-f4fc79d9?st=anf67m9n11iopp2&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink https://www.wsj.com/business/telecom/starlink-musk-ukraine-r... Remember that Musk plays dumb on this. His stated stance is no Starlink has been directly or indirectly sold to Russia, and the terminals "will not work” there (from article). The units are GPS capable and could be denied service, but they clearly aren't, and Musk is lying about it. This is not limited to the Ukraine issue, it's a US-sanctioned-areas issue: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-03-25/elon-musk-s-spacex-sees-starlink-black-market-trade-grow-worldwide https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-03-25/elon-musk... Meanwhile, US troops are somehow being denied Starlink access in Taiwan. https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/24/house-china-committee-elon-musk-spacex-starshield-taiwan.html#:~:text=The%20House%20Select%20Committee%20on,designed%20specifically%20for%20the%20military https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/24/house-china-committee-elon-m.... Tl;dr: US military contractor SpaceX can not be relied upon to take the side of the US in military conflicts.
- ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
  Thanks for posting this. Could you please post the non-paywalled link as _the_ link in the future?
  - inemesitaffia 3y ago
    I don't think it's a good idea because of deduplication issues and he's wrong anyway
- inemesitaffia 3y ago
  There's no evidence of Russians using Starlink in Russia Ukraine doesn't want geofencing Taiwan doesn't want Starlink in it's territory. Why don't you ask those reps what they think now?
  - spenvo 3y ago
    Gee, I love trying to disprove three negatives at a time! Reminds me of Brandolini's law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law You want evidence? First, read the (deeply reported) article, before posting about it. It's Russians using them in occupied areas of Ukraine that is of concern. You claim to speak for all of Ukraine on geofencing? That's a tall claim that is not supported in 2024. Ukraine wants geofencing around occupied areas (they're the main ones complaining about it in the first place!). Again, Elon is playing dumb on the usage of Starlink in the country. He already has implemented geofencing in Crimea (to hinder Ukrainian forces https://www.politico.eu/article/elon-musk-biographer-walter-isaacson-clarify-details-starlink-war-russia-ukraine-outcry/ https://www.politico.eu/article/elon-musk-biographer-walter-... ), he's bragged about being able to watch network traffic in a war zone "On the phone, Musk said that he was looking at his laptop and could see “the entire war unfolding” through a map of Starlink activity. “This was, like, three minutes before he said, ‘Well, I had this great conversation with Putin,’ ” the senior defense official told me." https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/08/28/elon-musks-shadow-rule https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/08/28/elon-musks-sha... More, from months ago: "Ukraine's GUR military intelligence unit says Russian forces are using Starlink terminals on the front line, corroborating multiple media reports in recent days" https://www.techmeme.com/240212/p6#a240212p6 https://www.techmeme.com/240212/p6#a240212p6 https://www.ft.com/content/e69c8c20-85a2-4e98-8b6f-46b92f42871b https://www.ft.com/content/e69c8c20-85a2-4e98-8b6f-46b92f428... (non-paywalled https://t.co/VmSlrxykHc https://t.co/VmSlrxykHc) -- https://twitter.com/sambendett/status/1755608457280160187 https://twitter.com/sambendett/status/1755608457280160187 -- and I could go on. What about all the Starlinks in sanctioned countries mentioned above? No comment? (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-03-25/elon-musk-s-spacex-sees-starlink-black-market-trade-grow-worldwide https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-03-25/elon-musk...) And Taiwan would love having Starlink, but SpaceX did not find the general ISP terms for deployment there tenable, but denying US military use is a different issue https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/14/business/taiwan-starlink-satellite.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/14/business/taiwan-starlink-...
    - inemesitaffia 3y ago
      Musk said it's not working in Russia. No evidence otherwise. Ukrainians don't want geofencing. They've experienced it before as you said in Crimea and also Kherson. Apart from me speaking with those involved with deployment personally, you can check the "Starlink in Ukraine" Wikipedia article. And that also doesn't fix the same cell use issues regardless of captured equipment. Ukrainians at that time insisted they wanted it everywhere within their legal territory. I believe they have that now. Definitely Sudan is a different matter, but you could definitely claim it's providing a lifeline to civilians cut off from service. Other countries have changed ownership laws to get Starlink. A recent example is Indonesia, the opposite is Vietnam. If the Feds want thier military to have it they can get a waiver from the local government. Or just ask SpaceX to transmit anyway. You're essentially asking SpaceX to do in Taiwan what they do in Sudan. So there's no issue with Sudan from your POV I know more about this stories than you do, sorry. The issue in Ukraine is being fixed with a whitelist. It àllows Ukrainians to buy individually, use it behind enemy lines, supply comms to partisans, use in baba yaga drones etc . For sanctioned areas you can talk to State and Treasury. They'll blank you anyway. You remind me of the SpaceX won't get a contract for Starlink in Ukraine people from 2022,

14 points by spenvo 3y ago

Non-paywalled version https://www.wsj.com/business/telecom/starlink-musk-ukraine-russia-sudan-satellite-communications-technology-f4fc79d9?st=anf67m9n11iopp2&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink https://www.wsj.com/business/telecom/starlink-musk-ukraine-r... Remember that Musk plays dumb on this. His stated stance is no Starlink has been directly or indirectly sold to Russia, and the terminals "will not work” there (from article). The units are GPS capable and could be denied service, but they clearly aren't, and Musk is lying about it. This is not limited to the Ukraine issue, it's a US-sanctioned-areas issue: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-03-25/elon-musk-s-spacex-sees-starlink-black-market-trade-grow-worldwide https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-03-25/elon-musk... Meanwhile, US troops are somehow being denied Starlink access in Taiwan. https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/24/house-china-committee-elon-musk-spacex-starshield-taiwan.html#:~:text=The%20House%20Select%20Committee%20on,designed%20specifically%20for%20the%20military https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/24/house-china-committee-elon-m.... Tl;dr: US military contractor SpaceX can not be relied upon to take the side of the US in military conflicts.

ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
Thanks for posting this. Could you please post the non-paywalled link as _the_ link in the future?
- inemesitaffia 3y ago
  I don't think it's a good idea because of deduplication issues and he's wrong anyway
inemesitaffia 3y ago
There's no evidence of Russians using Starlink in Russia Ukraine doesn't want geofencing Taiwan doesn't want Starlink in it's territory. Why don't you ask those reps what they think now?
- spenvo 3y ago
  Gee, I love trying to disprove three negatives at a time! Reminds me of Brandolini's law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law You want evidence? First, read the (deeply reported) article, before posting about it. It's Russians using them in occupied areas of Ukraine that is of concern. You claim to speak for all of Ukraine on geofencing? That's a tall claim that is not supported in 2024. Ukraine wants geofencing around occupied areas (they're the main ones complaining about it in the first place!). Again, Elon is playing dumb on the usage of Starlink in the country. He already has implemented geofencing in Crimea (to hinder Ukrainian forces https://www.politico.eu/article/elon-musk-biographer-walter-isaacson-clarify-details-starlink-war-russia-ukraine-outcry/ https://www.politico.eu/article/elon-musk-biographer-walter-... ), he's bragged about being able to watch network traffic in a war zone "On the phone, Musk said that he was looking at his laptop and could see “the entire war unfolding” through a map of Starlink activity. “This was, like, three minutes before he said, ‘Well, I had this great conversation with Putin,’ ” the senior defense official told me." https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/08/28/elon-musks-shadow-rule https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/08/28/elon-musks-sha... More, from months ago: "Ukraine's GUR military intelligence unit says Russian forces are using Starlink terminals on the front line, corroborating multiple media reports in recent days" https://www.techmeme.com/240212/p6#a240212p6 https://www.techmeme.com/240212/p6#a240212p6 https://www.ft.com/content/e69c8c20-85a2-4e98-8b6f-46b92f42871b https://www.ft.com/content/e69c8c20-85a2-4e98-8b6f-46b92f428... (non-paywalled https://t.co/VmSlrxykHc https://t.co/VmSlrxykHc) -- https://twitter.com/sambendett/status/1755608457280160187 https://twitter.com/sambendett/status/1755608457280160187 -- and I could go on. What about all the Starlinks in sanctioned countries mentioned above? No comment? (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-03-25/elon-musk-s-spacex-sees-starlink-black-market-trade-grow-worldwide https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-03-25/elon-musk...) And Taiwan would love having Starlink, but SpaceX did not find the general ISP terms for deployment there tenable, but denying US military use is a different issue https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/14/business/taiwan-starlink-satellite.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/14/business/taiwan-starlink-...
  - inemesitaffia 3y ago
    Musk said it's not working in Russia. No evidence otherwise. Ukrainians don't want geofencing. They've experienced it before as you said in Crimea and also Kherson. Apart from me speaking with those involved with deployment personally, you can check the "Starlink in Ukraine" Wikipedia article. And that also doesn't fix the same cell use issues regardless of captured equipment. Ukrainians at that time insisted they wanted it everywhere within their legal territory. I believe they have that now. Definitely Sudan is a different matter, but you could definitely claim it's providing a lifeline to civilians cut off from service. Other countries have changed ownership laws to get Starlink. A recent example is Indonesia, the opposite is Vietnam. If the Feds want thier military to have it they can get a waiver from the local government. Or just ask SpaceX to transmit anyway. You're essentially asking SpaceX to do in Taiwan what they do in Sudan. So there's no issue with Sudan from your POV I know more about this stories than you do, sorry. The issue in Ukraine is being fixed with a whitelist. It àllows Ukrainians to buy individually, use it behind enemy lines, supply comms to partisans, use in baba yaga drones etc . For sanctioned areas you can talk to State and Treasury. They'll blank you anyway. You remind me of the SpaceX won't get a contract for Starlink in Ukraine people from 2022,