4 ms·

Thank god we have a tariff to protect us from these lower cost vehicles.

by willcipriano 3y ago

tryptophan 3y ago
Yeah, having to buy something other than the Ford™ Giga-MAX EXTREME FREEDOM F150-THUNDERBOLT for 95k would be awful.
- jhayward 3y ago
  You mean like Ford's Mustang Mach-E, that starts at $40,000? I'm not sure what purpose the hyperbole serves here.
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    If that's competitive why do they need a tariff?
  - 0cVlTeIATBs 3y ago
    For comparison, BYD's are in the $10k range https://electrek.co/2024/03/06/byd-launches-cheaper-seagull-ev-9700-price/ https://electrek.co/2024/03/06/byd-launches-cheaper-seagull-...
    - adriancr 3y ago
      Those 10K range cars are much lower quality/battery/finish/size/etc... and that's before any shipping, taxes and likely adding any safety features required to adhere to rules to US/EU market.
      - aaomidi 3y ago
        > quality Hmm. Not sure I agree with you there. American cars aren’t particularly known for being high quality.
        adriancr 3y ago
        That BYD is equivalent to a 23.5K dacia spring extreme... so similar quality can be had cheaper. American cars are much nicer (tesla?), or have better reputation then a recent foreign company with no accountability if they decide to pack up and leave customers stranded... Or if China decides to invade taiwan and get embargoed.
      - Cthulhu_ 3y ago
        August last year the cheapest BYD was €30K in the Netherlands: https://www.autoweek.nl/autonieuws/artikel/byd-verlaagt-prijzen-aanzienlijk-en-haakt-in-op-prijzenoorlog/ https://www.autoweek.nl/autonieuws/artikel/byd-verlaagt-prij... Given it's selling in NL it will meet EU safety standards, but granted, that's a far cry from €10K and still very far removed from affordable / budget.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        vancan1ty 3y ago
        Note that I think the BYD quote of 29 or 30k euros is including VAT [1] which is 21% in the Netherlands. On the other hand the quote given above as the starting price in the US for the Mach-E not include sales tax. In the Netherlands (trying to compare apples to apples), the Mach-E is being sold for €75200 [2]. Significant price gap in that market. [1] https://www.beev.co/en/electric-cars/marques/byd/byd-dolphin/ https://www.beev.co/en/electric-cars/marques/byd/byd-dolphin... [2] https://ev-database.org/nl/auto/2038/Ford-Mustang-Mach-E-GT https://ev-database.org/nl/auto/2038/Ford-Mustang-Mach-E-GT
        adriancr 3y ago
        You can get Mustang mach-e, basic for 46K (check ford.nl...), you are looking at the GT version there which is much much nicer compares to the 30k BYD. You can gey hyundai kona starting from 37k with 65kwh battery as opposed to byd 44kwh for 30k. So more value for money. Apples to Apples is Dacia Spring Extreme 44kwh for 23.5K with tax for same battery and features... much lower price then BYD
dghughes 3y ago
I'm sure a Uyghur and a Tibetan would agree.
- Argonaut998 3y ago
  Non-sequitur and hypocritical considering what the US turns a blind eye to with its trade partners. The glorious free market of the US’ protectionism has nothing to do with humanitarian issues.
- aaomidi 3y ago
  What about a Palestinian and the US prison labor industry?
cbg0 3y ago
I know you're being facetious, but the goal is to protect the automotive industry which has higher costs and safety standards compared to Chinese factories and to encourage these manufacturers to set up local factories to create jobs.
- cute_boi 3y ago
  as long as safety standards match, I don't think we should slap them with high tariffs. If we start protecting car industry, we all know the consequences. There is a reason why many people prefer toyota over American brand car.
lenerdenator 3y ago
I, too, like feeding as much money as possible to adversarial totalitarian governments while selling out my nation's industrial base.
- willcipriano 3y ago
  > selling out my nation's industrial base. I cant take that seriously with a wide open border.
  - lenerdenator 3y ago
    One brings labor into a country, the other evaporates the need for said labor. Also there are a lot of guys standing in processing centers waiting for their asylum claims to be processed who would take umbrage with your definition of "wide open border", but that's another discussion.
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      The low skill vulnerable labor you bring into the country evaporates the need for the higher paid labor you already have.
      - lenerdenator 3y ago
        You're intentionally misleading away from the point: the United States does not benefit from becoming wholly dependent on China for industrial goods. I don't care what some Wall Street exec or Austrian School "scholar" tells you. Sure, some shareholders might - and they're the same ones who also benefit from screwing migrant laborers - but you're not one of these captains of industry who can jet off to their bunker in New Zealand when shit hits the fan.
        willcipriano 3y ago
        > becoming wholly dependent on China Becoming? Like that isn't already the case? This is a special purpose carve out to reward a voting block. The rest of us get globalism.
constantcrying 3y ago
The German car makers oppose proposed tariffs, they believe that they can compete with the Chinese and in fact are already doing so in China, with variable success.
- Rinzler89 3y ago
  German car companies all have partnerships with local Chinese auto companies for their factories in China. Tarifs in Europe would mean a tit-for-tat for German cars in China ruining them. That's why they don't want tariffs, to protect themselves from retaliation.. What German companies will probably do in Europe is import Chinese EV designs from their partners, and rebadge them locally the same way Renault does with the Dacia Spring.
  - constantcrying 3y ago
    >Tarifs in Europe would mean a tit-for-tat for German cars in China ruining them. That's why they don't want tarrifs. Yes, but this is just the nature of competition. If they think they couldn't compete, either in China or Europe, they would beg for Tarifs. >What German companies will probably do in Europe is import Chinese EV designs from their partners, and rebadge them locally the same way Renault does with the Dacia Spring. I assume you mean cars not designs of cars? That seems like the thing least useful to import. Yes, if they want/need low costs for their cars they will build and import the budget models from China. If you have seen Chinese EV prices you would know why, they are insanely cheap, even if they are more or less equivalent to European cars of the same brand. But they don't need to rebadge, they just build the actual badges cars and ship them to Europe. I think the one important question is how long china can compete in the race to the bottom. The lower prices are due to many factors, labor cost among those. Surely that will not be sustainable indefinitely.
    - Rinzler89 3y ago
      >I think the one important question is how long china can compete in the race to the bottom. Haha, China can compete in the manufacturing race to the bottom far longer than Western companies/nations can stay solvent in that race with all their unions, high wages, pensions, and worker's rights pushing their costs up. To whit, all my mates still working in the EU automotive scene with transferable skills are trying to side hop into other industries since the wage prospects in automotive for the same jobs are getting grim now. EU can't compete with the US on SW innovation and can't compete with China on HW cheapness and manufacturing at scale. It's being squeeze in a pincer movement at both ends and I fear we'll see more years of economic stagnation to come.

Thank god we have a tariff to protect us from these lower cost vehicles.

tryptophan 3y ago

Yeah, having to buy something other than the Ford™ Giga-MAX EXTREME FREEDOM F150-THUNDERBOLT for 95k would be awful.

jhayward 3y ago
You mean like Ford's Mustang Mach-E, that starts at $40,000? I'm not sure what purpose the hyperbole serves here.
- willcipriano 3y ago
  If that's competitive why do they need a tariff?
- 0cVlTeIATBs 3y ago
  For comparison, BYD's are in the $10k range https://electrek.co/2024/03/06/byd-launches-cheaper-seagull-ev-9700-price/ https://electrek.co/2024/03/06/byd-launches-cheaper-seagull-...
  - adriancr 3y ago
    Those 10K range cars are much lower quality/battery/finish/size/etc... and that's before any shipping, taxes and likely adding any safety features required to adhere to rules to US/EU market.
    - aaomidi 3y ago
      > quality Hmm. Not sure I agree with you there. American cars aren’t particularly known for being high quality.
      - adriancr 3y ago
        That BYD is equivalent to a 23.5K dacia spring extreme... so similar quality can be had cheaper. American cars are much nicer (tesla?), or have better reputation then a recent foreign company with no accountability if they decide to pack up and leave customers stranded... Or if China decides to invade taiwan and get embargoed.
    - Cthulhu_ 3y ago
      August last year the cheapest BYD was €30K in the Netherlands: https://www.autoweek.nl/autonieuws/artikel/byd-verlaagt-prijzen-aanzienlijk-en-haakt-in-op-prijzenoorlog/ https://www.autoweek.nl/autonieuws/artikel/byd-verlaagt-prij... Given it's selling in NL it will meet EU safety standards, but granted, that's a far cry from €10K and still very far removed from affordable / budget.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - vancan1ty 3y ago
        Note that I think the BYD quote of 29 or 30k euros is including VAT [1] which is 21% in the Netherlands. On the other hand the quote given above as the starting price in the US for the Mach-E not include sales tax. In the Netherlands (trying to compare apples to apples), the Mach-E is being sold for €75200 [2]. Significant price gap in that market. [1] https://www.beev.co/en/electric-cars/marques/byd/byd-dolphin/ https://www.beev.co/en/electric-cars/marques/byd/byd-dolphin... [2] https://ev-database.org/nl/auto/2038/Ford-Mustang-Mach-E-GT https://ev-database.org/nl/auto/2038/Ford-Mustang-Mach-E-GT
        adriancr 3y ago
        You can get Mustang mach-e, basic for 46K (check ford.nl...), you are looking at the GT version there which is much much nicer compares to the 30k BYD. You can gey hyundai kona starting from 37k with 65kwh battery as opposed to byd 44kwh for 30k. So more value for money. Apples to Apples is Dacia Spring Extreme 44kwh for 23.5K with tax for same battery and features... much lower price then BYD

dghughes 3y ago

I'm sure a Uyghur and a Tibetan would agree.

Argonaut998 3y ago
Non-sequitur and hypocritical considering what the US turns a blind eye to with its trade partners. The glorious free market of the US’ protectionism has nothing to do with humanitarian issues.
aaomidi 3y ago
What about a Palestinian and the US prison labor industry?

cbg0 3y ago

I know you're being facetious, but the goal is to protect the automotive industry which has higher costs and safety standards compared to Chinese factories and to encourage these manufacturers to set up local factories to create jobs.

cute_boi 3y ago
as long as safety standards match, I don't think we should slap them with high tariffs. If we start protecting car industry, we all know the consequences. There is a reason why many people prefer toyota over American brand car.

lenerdenator 3y ago

I, too, like feeding as much money as possible to adversarial totalitarian governments while selling out my nation's industrial base.

willcipriano 3y ago
> selling out my nation's industrial base. I cant take that seriously with a wide open border.
- lenerdenator 3y ago
  One brings labor into a country, the other evaporates the need for said labor. Also there are a lot of guys standing in processing centers waiting for their asylum claims to be processed who would take umbrage with your definition of "wide open border", but that's another discussion.
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    The low skill vulnerable labor you bring into the country evaporates the need for the higher paid labor you already have.
    - lenerdenator 3y ago
      You're intentionally misleading away from the point: the United States does not benefit from becoming wholly dependent on China for industrial goods. I don't care what some Wall Street exec or Austrian School "scholar" tells you. Sure, some shareholders might - and they're the same ones who also benefit from screwing migrant laborers - but you're not one of these captains of industry who can jet off to their bunker in New Zealand when shit hits the fan.
      - willcipriano 3y ago
        > becoming wholly dependent on China Becoming? Like that isn't already the case? This is a special purpose carve out to reward a voting block. The rest of us get globalism.

constantcrying 3y ago

The German car makers oppose proposed tariffs, they believe that they can compete with the Chinese and in fact are already doing so in China, with variable success.

Rinzler89 3y ago
German car companies all have partnerships with local Chinese auto companies for their factories in China. Tarifs in Europe would mean a tit-for-tat for German cars in China ruining them. That's why they don't want tariffs, to protect themselves from retaliation.. What German companies will probably do in Europe is import Chinese EV designs from their partners, and rebadge them locally the same way Renault does with the Dacia Spring.
- constantcrying 3y ago
  >Tarifs in Europe would mean a tit-for-tat for German cars in China ruining them. That's why they don't want tarrifs. Yes, but this is just the nature of competition. If they think they couldn't compete, either in China or Europe, they would beg for Tarifs. >What German companies will probably do in Europe is import Chinese EV designs from their partners, and rebadge them locally the same way Renault does with the Dacia Spring. I assume you mean cars not designs of cars? That seems like the thing least useful to import. Yes, if they want/need low costs for their cars they will build and import the budget models from China. If you have seen Chinese EV prices you would know why, they are insanely cheap, even if they are more or less equivalent to European cars of the same brand. But they don't need to rebadge, they just build the actual badges cars and ship them to Europe. I think the one important question is how long china can compete in the race to the bottom. The lower prices are due to many factors, labor cost among those. Surely that will not be sustainable indefinitely.
  - Rinzler89 3y ago
    >I think the one important question is how long china can compete in the race to the bottom. Haha, China can compete in the manufacturing race to the bottom far longer than Western companies/nations can stay solvent in that race with all their unions, high wages, pensions, and worker's rights pushing their costs up. To whit, all my mates still working in the EU automotive scene with transferable skills are trying to side hop into other industries since the wage prospects in automotive for the same jobs are getting grim now. EU can't compete with the US on SW innovation and can't compete with China on HW cheapness and manufacturing at scale. It's being squeeze in a pincer movement at both ends and I fear we'll see more years of economic stagnation to come.