6 ms·

Imagine looking at tech and saying, "this is a problem with tech companies, not a systemic flaw in capitalism itself". The tech companies are bad, but only uniq

by yareal 3y ago

Imagine looking at tech and saying, "this is a problem with tech companies, not a systemic flaw in capitalism itself". The tech companies are bad, but only uniquely bad in that they are efficient at what they do. You think Boeing, General Mills, or ford wouldn't want you to be a dev if they could figure out how to do it?

tmcb 3y ago
What does it have to do with devs? Those are business models devised by business people, some of them devs, some of them not. The article mentions enshittification. BMW is offering heated seats on a monthly subscription [1]. If an average teams of devs was asked to implement that as a practical joke, they would certainly be able to do it. Some of them can't quite make the jump between that and the fact that companies do expect to make a profit out of it. [1] https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/14/business/bmw-subscription/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/14/business/bmw-subscription...
- bathtub365 3y ago
  Just because developers aren’t coming up with the business models doesn’t mean they bear no responsibility. You can’t go to work every day for a company that makes bad things, as someone making bad things at that company, and claim no responsibility for their existence in the world. This is especially true when employee mobility is so high in software. Surely if developers had a mature sense of professional ethics and strong personal values they would be sure they worked at a company that they felt aligned with them, or admit that they have compromised their values for a larger paycheck. That BMW article is from 2022. They don’t offer that anymore[1]. [1]: https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/7/23863258/bmw-cancel-heated-seat-subscription-microtransaction https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/7/23863258/bmw-cancel-heated...
  - tmcb 3y ago
    That is not how I interpreted GP's point. It sounded to me as if they were saying that anyone in tech could move to other industries and make big bucks if the points in the interview were true. Thing is, even if the points in the interview are false, that would not apply, as devs are not the ones making the shots. Edit: btw, thanks for the heads-up about the heated seats subscription thing. I hope it doesn't make the point moot.
freefaler 3y ago
It's not the capitalism per se, but lack of free markets and overregulation. Humanity hasn't found yet a better way for resource allocation that capitalism. Capitalism = the system where the ownership of the capital is by private persons. (as defined by the dictionary) Is there a systemic problem that your auto dealership is not owned by government? May be the problem is that you can't open a new one, because of zoning laws or minimum wage or something else? No markets are free, but only in countries where markets have some degree of freedom you can have the abundance (and corresponding waste of the system). Check all centralized systems of resource allocation - from socialism, highly centralized authoritarianism, theocratic monarchies or very large companies. No competition = more waste. Any owner of a small business understands that there is no "flaw in capitalism" itself, because you can't force your clients to buy from you. You can only do that if you have cornered the market. You can't corner the market if you play by the free market rules. But if you need a "licence", "certificate" or other non-market tool to sell your goods to the customer this is the way to kill your competition. Varoufakis has been wrong soo many times since Greece default that it's not even worth mentioning all his predictions.
- freefaler 3y ago
  btw, auto dealerships are like that because territorial exclusivity by the large companies, not the "capitalism". because of capitlism, there are >1 auto dealership ...
  - itsoktocry 3y ago
    >btw, auto dealerships are like that because territorial exclusivity by the large companies, not the "capitalism". The auto world is cut-throat competitive. There are dealers everywhere, and most cars and features are commoditized. In every class and price range there are easily substitutable vehicles. Tech people like to talk about the auto industry like the market is scandalous.
    - freefaler 3y ago
      The problem is access to the tools by independent auto shops. There is a whole industry of alternative tool providers who are sniffing and reimplementing the protocols, because of the vendor lock-in.
tored 3y ago
I would rather say it is a synergi between technology and capitalism, both are needed to create the current state. Technology has always been a double edged sword thru human history, it is just that the sword keeps getting bigger and bigger. Capitalism can then take that sword and use one of the edges and make money out of it and that in turn wields political power.
jhanschoo 3y ago
The devil is in the details, and nuanced. A broadly capitalistic structure in the right place and time for the right society and with the right regulation, can be good. A state stricken with, say, ethnic factionalism that, while holding fair elections, oppresses their minorities, has a problem. Is it a problem with the majority race? Is it a problem with the presence and lack of ethnic minorities in this particular state? Is it a problem with democracy in general that it is perhaps not suitable for some states? Here the author makes the point that broadly speaking, the details of how capitalism used to be organized did not have these feudalistic aspects that aren't good, but they do now. > Boeing, General Mills, or ford wouldn't want you to be a dev if they could figure out how to do it? You do in fact agree with the author. He calls this subspecies cloud capitalism. In another time or place, cloud capitalism would be materially impossible, and capitalism of another flavor might still be appropriate. You disagree with the author in that they are silent on other types of capitalism, but you are considering this to be a flaw with capitalism at large, from what I can tell.
- m000 3y ago
  > The devil is in the details, and nuanced. A broadly capitalistic structure in the right place and time for the right society and with the right regulation, can be good. Same can be said for a communist structure. No?
  - kelipso 3y ago
    Pretty much any structure, you can say the same thing lol. True capitalism has never been achieved!

by yareal 3y ago

tmcb 3y ago

What does it have to do with devs? Those are business models devised by business people, some of them devs, some of them not. The article mentions enshittification. BMW is offering heated seats on a monthly subscription [1]. If an average teams of devs was asked to implement that as a practical joke, they would certainly be able to do it. Some of them can't quite make the jump between that and the fact that companies do expect to make a profit out of it. [1] https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/14/business/bmw-subscription/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/14/business/bmw-subscription...

bathtub365 3y ago
Just because developers aren’t coming up with the business models doesn’t mean they bear no responsibility. You can’t go to work every day for a company that makes bad things, as someone making bad things at that company, and claim no responsibility for their existence in the world. This is especially true when employee mobility is so high in software. Surely if developers had a mature sense of professional ethics and strong personal values they would be sure they worked at a company that they felt aligned with them, or admit that they have compromised their values for a larger paycheck. That BMW article is from 2022. They don’t offer that anymore[1]. [1]: https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/7/23863258/bmw-cancel-heated-seat-subscription-microtransaction https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/7/23863258/bmw-cancel-heated...
- tmcb 3y ago
  That is not how I interpreted GP's point. It sounded to me as if they were saying that anyone in tech could move to other industries and make big bucks if the points in the interview were true. Thing is, even if the points in the interview are false, that would not apply, as devs are not the ones making the shots. Edit: btw, thanks for the heads-up about the heated seats subscription thing. I hope it doesn't make the point moot.

freefaler 3y ago

It's not the capitalism per se, but lack of free markets and overregulation. Humanity hasn't found yet a better way for resource allocation that capitalism. Capitalism = the system where the ownership of the capital is by private persons. (as defined by the dictionary) Is there a systemic problem that your auto dealership is not owned by government? May be the problem is that you can't open a new one, because of zoning laws or minimum wage or something else? No markets are free, but only in countries where markets have some degree of freedom you can have the abundance (and corresponding waste of the system). Check all centralized systems of resource allocation - from socialism, highly centralized authoritarianism, theocratic monarchies or very large companies. No competition = more waste. Any owner of a small business understands that there is no "flaw in capitalism" itself, because you can't force your clients to buy from you. You can only do that if you have cornered the market. You can't corner the market if you play by the free market rules. But if you need a "licence", "certificate" or other non-market tool to sell your goods to the customer this is the way to kill your competition. Varoufakis has been wrong soo many times since Greece default that it's not even worth mentioning all his predictions.

freefaler 3y ago
btw, auto dealerships are like that because territorial exclusivity by the large companies, not the "capitalism". because of capitlism, there are >1 auto dealership ...
- itsoktocry 3y ago
  >btw, auto dealerships are like that because territorial exclusivity by the large companies, not the "capitalism". The auto world is cut-throat competitive. There are dealers everywhere, and most cars and features are commoditized. In every class and price range there are easily substitutable vehicles. Tech people like to talk about the auto industry like the market is scandalous.
  - freefaler 3y ago
    The problem is access to the tools by independent auto shops. There is a whole industry of alternative tool providers who are sniffing and reimplementing the protocols, because of the vendor lock-in.

tored 3y ago

I would rather say it is a synergi between technology and capitalism, both are needed to create the current state. Technology has always been a double edged sword thru human history, it is just that the sword keeps getting bigger and bigger. Capitalism can then take that sword and use one of the edges and make money out of it and that in turn wields political power.

jhanschoo 3y ago

The devil is in the details, and nuanced. A broadly capitalistic structure in the right place and time for the right society and with the right regulation, can be good. A state stricken with, say, ethnic factionalism that, while holding fair elections, oppresses their minorities, has a problem. Is it a problem with the majority race? Is it a problem with the presence and lack of ethnic minorities in this particular state? Is it a problem with democracy in general that it is perhaps not suitable for some states? Here the author makes the point that broadly speaking, the details of how capitalism used to be organized did not have these feudalistic aspects that aren't good, but they do now. > Boeing, General Mills, or ford wouldn't want you to be a dev if they could figure out how to do it? You do in fact agree with the author. He calls this subspecies cloud capitalism. In another time or place, cloud capitalism would be materially impossible, and capitalism of another flavor might still be appropriate. You disagree with the author in that they are silent on other types of capitalism, but you are considering this to be a flaw with capitalism at large, from what I can tell.

m000 3y ago
> The devil is in the details, and nuanced. A broadly capitalistic structure in the right place and time for the right society and with the right regulation, can be good. Same can be said for a communist structure. No?
- kelipso 3y ago
  Pretty much any structure, you can say the same thing lol. True capitalism has never been achieved!