5 ms·

Why is that a relevant take-away? Are you saying that not a singe physicist agrees that "[…] the current climate targets and measures are not sufficient to limi

by Y-bar 3y ago

Why is that a relevant take-away? Are you saying that not a singe physicist agrees that "[…] the current climate targets and measures are not sufficient to limit global warming to a safe level."?

Rochus 3y ago
That would be a pretty far-fetched interpretation. Let's stick to the obvious. One should be able to expect that a board of an association that is committed to a cause should have at least a few people on it who have formal training in that cause and appropriate professional experience. Otherwise, you could ask yourself with good reason why they can't find any experts to officially represent their cause.
- yareal 3y ago
  Are they doing science? Or are they litigating to influence their government based on the science. I'd argue that, contextually, they do have people with formal training on the cause - influencing governmental change. Those folks can hire experts to interpret white papers if needed, but they aren't participating in science, they are consuming it. (I don't need to be an excellent musician to advocate for the belief that Spotify doesn't equitably pay musicians. If I wanted to legislatively address that, I'd need lawyers and politicians, not musicians. And I could build a data driven case without many musicians at all.)
  - zmgsabst 3y ago
    I don’t take a group that’s all advocacy, zero expertise as a serious attempt to solve a complex challenge facing society. If you wanted to be taken seriously about “equitable pay for musicians”, then you’d absolutely need people who understand the economics and market dynamics of the music industry. Only having legal expertise makes it seem like you’re merely lobbying your personal feelings — not about a real problem. > And I could build a data driven case without many musicians at all. But not without data scientists, economists, and probably music industry insiders to provide data. And that’s not a job for lawyers and lobbyists; which was the original question.
    - fsflover 3y ago
      The difference here is that there is nothing unclear about the climate change. Opinion of the experts is available online, without a need to involve them in every action.
  - Rochus 3y ago
    Would you buy stocks in a biochemistry or medicine company without a single biochemist or physician on the board?
    - fsflover 3y ago
      A biochemistry or medicine company must do something novel to be relevant. In this case it's not necessary.
      - Rochus 3y ago
        Then you haven't understood that direct democracy works by convincing fellow citicens to vote for a new idea or direction. People are critical, especially if the new idea or direction restricts their comfort. So you can't just claim anything, you have to win trust with authority and evidence. But it seems that this committee would rather go to court than convince fellow citizens of the validity of their arguments.
        yareal 3y ago
        Democracy is also vulnerable to the tyranny of the majority, apathy, disenfranchisement, and multiple concerns that compete for head space. It's also slow, and the legal system exists specifically to address concerns like this. If a cop is busting heads, you don't wait to elect a new sheriff, you bring a lawsuit to fix the acute problem. If a department is systematically harming a group, you can try to elect someone who will make this their project, or you can get an intervention to prevent further harm via the legal system. Using the legal system to prevent acute harm is both correct and reasonable, even in a democracy.
        Rochus 3y ago
        > Democracy is also vulnerable to the tyranny of the majority Democracy is about the majority; and in Switzerland - in contrast to most other democracies - it's the majority of the real population, not just an elite class, and the people directly decide about real problems, not just who should represent them. And there are even provisions which assure that local concerns are sufficiently considered. You should inform yourself about this great political system. > Using the legal system to prevent acute harm is both correct and reasonable In the present case, it's clearly a misuse; it's a lobby organization with a lot of money that pro forma puts forward an association of old women so that with this sleight of hand the complaint is accepted by the court at all on a subject where the court has no jurisdiction at all. The aim is to undermine a democratically made decision against the will of the people, i.e. exactly the opposite of a democratic process.
IAMMidway 3y ago
Becaus it shows the ECHR is not a serious institution if PR-tricks like using "seniors" to bring forth your case helps you win. The ECHR needs to be abolished and Switzerland needs to leave this court.
- TheGeminon 3y ago
  So this would be a worthwhile case if a youthful physicist was bringing the complaint? As per the article, they are arguing that seniors are particularly affected by climate change due to heat waves, and these are causing deaths. The 2022 heatwaves had hundreds of deaths attributed to climate change in Switzerland: https://lenews.ch/2023/07/08/climate-change-behind-60-percent-of-swiss-heat-deaths/ https://lenews.ch/2023/07/08/climate-change-behind-60-percen...
  - tomp 3y ago
    The issue with people dying from heat waves has nothing to do with climate change. The issue is that Switzerland outlawed air conditioning for private homes (still allowed in shopping centres though!)
    - myrion 3y ago
      Show me that law, because as far as I can tell, that's complete nonsense. I know of a bunch of people who legally purchased and installed aircon in their homes.
      - tomp 3y ago
        It might vary by canton, I’m in Zürich. https://archive.is/7g3A9 https://archive.is/7g3A9 Yeah you can buy the mobile AC unit, but none of the new-builds in the past 10+ years come with a built-in (fixed) unit.
Rochus 3y ago
> Are you saying that not a singe physicist agrees that "[…] the current climate targets and measures are not sufficient to limit global warming to a safe level."? Ironically, since the present court case is essentially driven and funded by Greanpeace, even the co-founder of Greenpeace publicly states that there is no climate emergency. See e.g https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO00/20220208/114392/HHRG-117-GO00-20220208-SD011.pdf https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO00/20220208/114392/HHRG.... Here is a very interesting new documentary which covers relevant facts presented by renowned scientists and Nobel Prize winners, everyone interested in this topic should have a look at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmfRG8-RHEI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmfRG8-RHEI.
- Rochus 3y ago
  And here is a very interesting review about what seems to be true or not true in the referenced movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kue5-vJGB3g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kue5-vJGB3g.

by Y-bar 3y ago

Why is that a relevant take-away? Are you saying that not a singe physicist agrees that "[…] the current climate targets and measures are not sufficient to limit global warming to a safe level."?

Rochus 3y ago

That would be a pretty far-fetched interpretation. Let's stick to the obvious. One should be able to expect that a board of an association that is committed to a cause should have at least a few people on it who have formal training in that cause and appropriate professional experience. Otherwise, you could ask yourself with good reason why they can't find any experts to officially represent their cause.

yareal 3y ago
Are they doing science? Or are they litigating to influence their government based on the science. I'd argue that, contextually, they do have people with formal training on the cause - influencing governmental change. Those folks can hire experts to interpret white papers if needed, but they aren't participating in science, they are consuming it. (I don't need to be an excellent musician to advocate for the belief that Spotify doesn't equitably pay musicians. If I wanted to legislatively address that, I'd need lawyers and politicians, not musicians. And I could build a data driven case without many musicians at all.)
- zmgsabst 3y ago
  I don’t take a group that’s all advocacy, zero expertise as a serious attempt to solve a complex challenge facing society. If you wanted to be taken seriously about “equitable pay for musicians”, then you’d absolutely need people who understand the economics and market dynamics of the music industry. Only having legal expertise makes it seem like you’re merely lobbying your personal feelings — not about a real problem. > And I could build a data driven case without many musicians at all. But not without data scientists, economists, and probably music industry insiders to provide data. And that’s not a job for lawyers and lobbyists; which was the original question.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    The difference here is that there is nothing unclear about the climate change. Opinion of the experts is available online, without a need to involve them in every action.
- Rochus 3y ago
  Would you buy stocks in a biochemistry or medicine company without a single biochemist or physician on the board?
  - fsflover 3y ago
    A biochemistry or medicine company must do something novel to be relevant. In this case it's not necessary.
    - Rochus 3y ago
      Then you haven't understood that direct democracy works by convincing fellow citicens to vote for a new idea or direction. People are critical, especially if the new idea or direction restricts their comfort. So you can't just claim anything, you have to win trust with authority and evidence. But it seems that this committee would rather go to court than convince fellow citizens of the validity of their arguments.
      - yareal 3y ago
        Democracy is also vulnerable to the tyranny of the majority, apathy, disenfranchisement, and multiple concerns that compete for head space. It's also slow, and the legal system exists specifically to address concerns like this. If a cop is busting heads, you don't wait to elect a new sheriff, you bring a lawsuit to fix the acute problem. If a department is systematically harming a group, you can try to elect someone who will make this their project, or you can get an intervention to prevent further harm via the legal system. Using the legal system to prevent acute harm is both correct and reasonable, even in a democracy.
        Rochus 3y ago
        > Democracy is also vulnerable to the tyranny of the majority Democracy is about the majority; and in Switzerland - in contrast to most other democracies - it's the majority of the real population, not just an elite class, and the people directly decide about real problems, not just who should represent them. And there are even provisions which assure that local concerns are sufficiently considered. You should inform yourself about this great political system. > Using the legal system to prevent acute harm is both correct and reasonable In the present case, it's clearly a misuse; it's a lobby organization with a lot of money that pro forma puts forward an association of old women so that with this sleight of hand the complaint is accepted by the court at all on a subject where the court has no jurisdiction at all. The aim is to undermine a democratically made decision against the will of the people, i.e. exactly the opposite of a democratic process.

IAMMidway 3y ago

Becaus it shows the ECHR is not a serious institution if PR-tricks like using "seniors" to bring forth your case helps you win. The ECHR needs to be abolished and Switzerland needs to leave this court.

TheGeminon 3y ago
So this would be a worthwhile case if a youthful physicist was bringing the complaint? As per the article, they are arguing that seniors are particularly affected by climate change due to heat waves, and these are causing deaths. The 2022 heatwaves had hundreds of deaths attributed to climate change in Switzerland: https://lenews.ch/2023/07/08/climate-change-behind-60-percent-of-swiss-heat-deaths/ https://lenews.ch/2023/07/08/climate-change-behind-60-percen...
- tomp 3y ago
  The issue with people dying from heat waves has nothing to do with climate change. The issue is that Switzerland outlawed air conditioning for private homes (still allowed in shopping centres though!)
  - myrion 3y ago
    Show me that law, because as far as I can tell, that's complete nonsense. I know of a bunch of people who legally purchased and installed aircon in their homes.
    - tomp 3y ago
      It might vary by canton, I’m in Zürich. https://archive.is/7g3A9 https://archive.is/7g3A9 Yeah you can buy the mobile AC unit, but none of the new-builds in the past 10+ years come with a built-in (fixed) unit.

Rochus 3y ago

> Are you saying that not a singe physicist agrees that "[…] the current climate targets and measures are not sufficient to limit global warming to a safe level."? Ironically, since the present court case is essentially driven and funded by Greanpeace, even the co-founder of Greenpeace publicly states that there is no climate emergency. See e.g https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO00/20220208/114392/HHRG-117-GO00-20220208-SD011.pdf https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO00/20220208/114392/HHRG.... Here is a very interesting new documentary which covers relevant facts presented by renowned scientists and Nobel Prize winners, everyone interested in this topic should have a look at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmfRG8-RHEI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmfRG8-RHEI.

Rochus 3y ago
And here is a very interesting review about what seems to be true or not true in the referenced movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kue5-vJGB3g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kue5-vJGB3g.