4 ms·

I read once that a huge issue with US metro is our over the top strength requirements. I wonder if that is still true. It is clear that Europe/basically anywher

I read once that a huge issue with US metro is our over the top strength requirements. I wonder if that is still true. It is clear that Europe/basically anywhere has far more expertise and success in this than we do. Too bad it isn't as easy as 'we accept all country xxx regs and can start buying their stuff/using their designs'. I'm not that naive to think that is really a possibility, or that doing that would solve the other massive issues with US mass transit, but we can dream of transit like Tokyo can't we!

gok 3y ago
The car strength requirements only apply to mainline rail, not rapid transit like BART which runs on dedicated rails. And even on mainline rail, the FRA now accepts Europeans rolling stock as of a few years ago.
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  That being said, change is slow, and very few agencies have taken advantage of the new rules
- jajko 3y ago
  If US doesn't accept say Swiss products/designs then there is some serious flaw in that process (probably stemming from protectionism/corruption)
  - gok 3y ago
    Swiss trains from Stadler are in fact selling rather well in the US recently (Caltrain, e-BART, New Jersey Transit, Austin, Dallas, and most recently Metra in Chicago)
    - ac29 3y ago
      That Metra project looks interesting, they are buying battery powered trainsets: https://metra.com/newsroom/metra-buying-battery-powered-trainsets https://metra.com/newsroom/metra-buying-battery-powered-trai... 45-65 miles range, and 20-30 minutes to charge 20->80%. Better than I would have expected, and certainly could work well on shorter routes where full electrification is impractical. Sounds like it will be built in the US as well.
  - dibujaron 3y ago
    There's more to it than that. Our freight trains are much larger, heavier, and longer than swiss/European freight trains. It's not unreasonable to think that a passenger train sharing track space with North American freight trains would need to be more heavily built, if withstanding a collision is a goal.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      There are other options. Positive train control is better than strong cars - train control means the trains can't crash in the first place (they can still derail, but you can't run into a slow/stopped train in front of you as the train will automatically stop if it cannot verify there is no train on the track in front of it). This is now mandatory in the US (with a lot of fine print exceptions).
      - EricE 3y ago
        Yes, because PTC systems never fail. Ugh.
        bluGill 3y ago
        PTC generally is designed to fail safe, so it will stop the train if something might be wrong. Nothing is perfect, but everything has a compromise and strong trains have a lot of negatives - they cost more, use more energy (read global warming as it there is normally some non-clean energy in the mix).
    - wbl 3y ago
      The hierarchy of controls suggests preventing collision
  - huytersd 3y ago
    Trains in Europe don’t have one engine pulling 200 cars stretching back for more than a mile.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bloqs 3y ago
When you mean strength, what are you referring to?
- Sakos 3y ago
  I assume they mean this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buff_strength https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buff_strength > Buff strength is a design term used in the certification of rail rolling stock. It refers to the required resistance to deformation or permanent damage due to loads applied at the car's ends, such as in a collision. Particular emphasis on buff strength is placed in the United States, with buff strength requirements there being higher than in Europe. Never heard of it before either.
  - lqet 3y ago
    > such as in a collision Really the worst-case scenario for a train crash is a collision on the side, because carriages are not built for it. This is the main reason why the Eschede train disaster [0] killed 101 people - the train "folded" because part of a broken wheel had flipped a railroad switch underneath the moving train. Then the folded carriages crashed sideways into a bridge. https://dims.apnews.com/dims4/default/0fe6b8a/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2000x1125+0+79/resize/1440x810!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstorage.googleapis.com%2Fafs-prod%2Fmedia%2F3585061ea6a741e8b84b4dbd73ed892a%2F2000.jpeg https://dims.apnews.com/dims4/default/0fe6b8a/2147483647/str... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_train_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_train_disaster
  - gonesilent 3y ago
    Europe doesn't get quite the train length that you see in the US. Also automatic latching versus manual latching on train cars in the US. The US was first to bump latch cars smacking them into one another.
    - KptMarchewa 3y ago
      Yes, but that should not matter on lines where passenger traffic is not mixed with freight one.
mschuster91 3y ago
> I read once that a huge issue with US metro is our over the top strength requirements. I wonder if that is still true. It is clear that Europe/basically anywhere has far more expertise and success in this than we do. No, our trains are just waaay shorter - around 740-835 meters and a maximum weight of 2.200 tons [1]. US trains however? 3.6 km regular length limit [2], with the record being held by a 6.5km long and 48.100 tons weight. Even just at shunting, the forces in play are so much larger than here in Europe. [1] https://die-gueterbahnen.com/news/zahl-des-tages/4.html https://die-gueterbahnen.com/news/zahl-des-tages/4.html [2] https://www.uirr.com/en/news/mediacentre/2286-the-optimal-length-of-freight-trains.html https://www.uirr.com/en/news/mediacentre/2286-the-optimal-le... [3] https://zmodal.com/2020/04/30/trains-are-longer-and-heavier-than-ever/ https://zmodal.com/2020/04/30/trains-are-longer-and-heavier-...

gok 3y ago

The car strength requirements only apply to mainline rail, not rapid transit like BART which runs on dedicated rails. And even on mainline rail, the FRA now accepts Europeans rolling stock as of a few years ago.

bobthepanda 3y ago
That being said, change is slow, and very few agencies have taken advantage of the new rules
jajko 3y ago
If US doesn't accept say Swiss products/designs then there is some serious flaw in that process (probably stemming from protectionism/corruption)
- gok 3y ago
  Swiss trains from Stadler are in fact selling rather well in the US recently (Caltrain, e-BART, New Jersey Transit, Austin, Dallas, and most recently Metra in Chicago)
  - ac29 3y ago
    That Metra project looks interesting, they are buying battery powered trainsets: https://metra.com/newsroom/metra-buying-battery-powered-trainsets https://metra.com/newsroom/metra-buying-battery-powered-trai... 45-65 miles range, and 20-30 minutes to charge 20->80%. Better than I would have expected, and certainly could work well on shorter routes where full electrification is impractical. Sounds like it will be built in the US as well.
- dibujaron 3y ago
  There's more to it than that. Our freight trains are much larger, heavier, and longer than swiss/European freight trains. It's not unreasonable to think that a passenger train sharing track space with North American freight trains would need to be more heavily built, if withstanding a collision is a goal.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    There are other options. Positive train control is better than strong cars - train control means the trains can't crash in the first place (they can still derail, but you can't run into a slow/stopped train in front of you as the train will automatically stop if it cannot verify there is no train on the track in front of it). This is now mandatory in the US (with a lot of fine print exceptions).
    - EricE 3y ago
      Yes, because PTC systems never fail. Ugh.
      - bluGill 3y ago
        PTC generally is designed to fail safe, so it will stop the train if something might be wrong. Nothing is perfect, but everything has a compromise and strong trains have a lot of negatives - they cost more, use more energy (read global warming as it there is normally some non-clean energy in the mix).
  - wbl 3y ago
    The hierarchy of controls suggests preventing collision
- huytersd 3y ago
  Trains in Europe don’t have one engine pulling 200 cars stretching back for more than a mile.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

bloqs 3y ago

When you mean strength, what are you referring to?

Sakos 3y ago
I assume they mean this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buff_strength https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buff_strength > Buff strength is a design term used in the certification of rail rolling stock. It refers to the required resistance to deformation or permanent damage due to loads applied at the car's ends, such as in a collision. Particular emphasis on buff strength is placed in the United States, with buff strength requirements there being higher than in Europe. Never heard of it before either.
- lqet 3y ago
  > such as in a collision Really the worst-case scenario for a train crash is a collision on the side, because carriages are not built for it. This is the main reason why the Eschede train disaster [0] killed 101 people - the train "folded" because part of a broken wheel had flipped a railroad switch underneath the moving train. Then the folded carriages crashed sideways into a bridge. https://dims.apnews.com/dims4/default/0fe6b8a/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2000x1125+0+79/resize/1440x810!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstorage.googleapis.com%2Fafs-prod%2Fmedia%2F3585061ea6a741e8b84b4dbd73ed892a%2F2000.jpeg https://dims.apnews.com/dims4/default/0fe6b8a/2147483647/str... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_train_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_train_disaster
- gonesilent 3y ago
  Europe doesn't get quite the train length that you see in the US. Also automatic latching versus manual latching on train cars in the US. The US was first to bump latch cars smacking them into one another.
  - KptMarchewa 3y ago
    Yes, but that should not matter on lines where passenger traffic is not mixed with freight one.

mschuster91 3y ago

> I read once that a huge issue with US metro is our over the top strength requirements. I wonder if that is still true. It is clear that Europe/basically anywhere has far more expertise and success in this than we do. No, our trains are just waaay shorter - around 740-835 meters and a maximum weight of 2.200 tons [1]. US trains however? 3.6 km regular length limit [2], with the record being held by a 6.5km long and 48.100 tons weight. Even just at shunting, the forces in play are so much larger than here in Europe. [1] https://die-gueterbahnen.com/news/zahl-des-tages/4.html https://die-gueterbahnen.com/news/zahl-des-tages/4.html [2] https://www.uirr.com/en/news/mediacentre/2286-the-optimal-length-of-freight-trains.html https://www.uirr.com/en/news/mediacentre/2286-the-optimal-le... [3] https://zmodal.com/2020/04/30/trains-are-longer-and-heavier-than-ever/ https://zmodal.com/2020/04/30/trains-are-longer-and-heavier-...