6 ms·

> I wonder if there’s an opportunity for BART to switch to standard gauge in the future or as part of retiring trains, or if that’s even a good idea for cost sa

by danans 3y ago

> I wonder if there’s an opportunity for BART to switch to standard gauge in the future or as part of retiring trains, or if that’s even a good idea for cost savings? I'm guessing it would be massively expensive, and it's not clear to what end they would change it. It's not like they could then buy cheaper off-the-shelf trains, since the trains still have to be designed and built for the particular system in other ways, i.e. controls, propulsion, and custom interiors. Also, BART doesn't share tracks with any other system, so there's no reason to do it for compatiblity's sake either.

inferiorhuman 3y ago
It's not like they could then buy cheaper off-the-shelf trains, since the trains still have to be designed and built for the particular system in other ways, i.e. controls, propulsion, and custom interiors. They could but they've doubled down on American exceptionalism (or NIH if you prefer). For instance, Muni's Siemens trains (and the Boeing/Vertols and PCCs before them) are far closer to a standard train than BART's stuff. The real advantage is in cheaper propulsion and maintenance kit. BART runs a non-standard voltage and had a ton of trouble sourcing thyristors for their old fleet. Track maintenance vehicles also need to be custom built. BART doesn't share tracks with any other system, so there's no reason to do it for compatiblity's sake either. BART doesn't share tracks because they can't. As a result they run three separate fleets of wholly incompatible vehicles for no good reason. eBART is a standard gauge diesel multiple unit system – because even with BART's typically inflated ridership estimates they couldn't make the expensive mainline kit work. That would've been a perfect opportunity to start the excruciatingly slow process of converting the mainline to more current standards.
- dehrmann 3y ago
  > BART doesn't share tracks because they can't If Bart hadn't picked a goofy gauge, it would probably be using the Caltrain corridor by now.
  - gumby 3y ago
    BTW the Caltrain corridor is SP's corridor (Standard and Pacific was Leland Stanford's gold mine) which SP maintains to run the occasional freight train and also gets paid to run caltrain on it. I haven't been following the whole electrification effort (except seeing it happen): will S&P still run diesel freight on those tracks?
    - Lammy 3y ago
      UP absorbed SP in 1996: https://www.uprr.com/aboutup/history/decision.pdf https://www.uprr.com/aboutup/history/decision.pdf Here are some videos from when SP ran the “Peninsula Commute” <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peninsula_Commute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peninsula_Commute> service before the formation of Caltrain: — Fairbanks-Morse Train Masters on the SP Peninsula Commute in 1972 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XElWHtywY6I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XElWHtywY6I — SP Peninsula Commute (February 26, 1985) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqORVlDs4lQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqORVlDs4lQ — 1970s Southern Pacific Commuter Parade https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_-BgistV-w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_-BgistV-w Before 1975 it ran to the old 3rd & Townsend depot instead of 4th & King like today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_and_Townsend_Depot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_and_Townsend_Depot
    - ZanyProgrammer 3y ago
      Yes they'll unfortunately continue to run freight trains on those tracks. Also the corridor down to Gilroy from Tamien won't be electrified.
      - gumby 3y ago
        What’s unfortunate about them running those freight trains? It’s a greener way to transport freight than a bunch of trucks. (I used to live not far from a crossing in Palo Alto and they had to toot their horn as they went past at 2 am but I can hardly call it burdensome)
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
- jjfoooo4 3y ago
  Can you elaborate on what you by them running three incompatible fleets?
  - javawizard 3y ago
    I think they're referring to: - The standard BART fleet - eBART: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBART https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBART - The Oakland Connector: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_Airport_Connector https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_Airport_Connector All of which use completely different and mutually incompatible rolling stock.
dehrmann 3y ago
> the trains still have to be designed and built for the particular system in other ways Aren't Caltrain's new electric trains essentially off-the-shelf? A few years ago when they needed more capacity, they bought more bi-level Bombardier cars from another agency. They went into service without being repainted. Fixing the gauge mistake will probably never pay for itself (NYC can't even settle on a car width), but it'll be a never-ending headache and tax for the agency.
- andbberger 3y ago
  they were off the shelf into caltrain got their grubby hands into the procurement process! they are about twice as powerful as standard KISSs. also stadler had to install an extra powerful air compressor so they can ding their fucking bell
- danans 3y ago
  Caltrain shares track with freight rail, and doesn't run trains nearly as closely or frequently as BART. No other type of train makes sense to run on BART's tracks.
- bryananderson 3y ago
  The Caltrain KISSes are not really off the shelf, in many ways, good and bad and ugly. The (arguably) good: 1) they have a boxier profile than the standard KISS, which some have complained about, but the reason the European version is less boxy is because Europe has a more restrictive loading gauge (the allowable cross-section of the vehicle), resulting in a more cramped upper level. Caltrain doesn’t have this issue, and so the upper level will not be cramped. 2) The Caltrain KISS is more powerful than the standard, which would allow for a faster top speed… if the corridor was upgraded to make use of it, which it is not. Maybe someday. The bad/silly: two sets of doors… a higher set since HSR might allegedly someday come to this corridor and require changing the platform height, and a lower set because that ain’t happening for a long time, if ever. I think there are some other bad/silly things which I’ve willfully forgotten about (I think they fucked up the ADA lifts somehow?), which I’m sure are documented somewhere on Clem Tillier’s excellent blog.[0] The ugly: “buy America” requirements forced Stadler to build an entire factory in the US, raising the cost by over 50% compared to the standard KISS. This is the bad kind of industrial policy which raises costs without actually building up US industrial capacity in this field (if Stadler closed the plant tomorrow, the US wouldn’t retain any expertise or capacity to build trains). [0] https://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com https://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com
mrWiz 3y ago
> Also, BART doesn't share tracks with any other system, so there's no reason to do it for compatiblity's sake either. Isn't that a chicken/egg issue? How could BART share tracks with systems using incompatible rails?

by danans 3y ago

inferiorhuman 3y ago

It's not like they could then buy cheaper off-the-shelf trains, since the trains still have to be designed and built for the particular system in other ways, i.e. controls, propulsion, and custom interiors. They could but they've doubled down on American exceptionalism (or NIH if you prefer). For instance, Muni's Siemens trains (and the Boeing/Vertols and PCCs before them) are far closer to a standard train than BART's stuff. The real advantage is in cheaper propulsion and maintenance kit. BART runs a non-standard voltage and had a ton of trouble sourcing thyristors for their old fleet. Track maintenance vehicles also need to be custom built. BART doesn't share tracks with any other system, so there's no reason to do it for compatiblity's sake either. BART doesn't share tracks because they can't. As a result they run three separate fleets of wholly incompatible vehicles for no good reason. eBART is a standard gauge diesel multiple unit system – because even with BART's typically inflated ridership estimates they couldn't make the expensive mainline kit work. That would've been a perfect opportunity to start the excruciatingly slow process of converting the mainline to more current standards.

dehrmann 3y ago
> BART doesn't share tracks because they can't If Bart hadn't picked a goofy gauge, it would probably be using the Caltrain corridor by now.
- gumby 3y ago
  BTW the Caltrain corridor is SP's corridor (Standard and Pacific was Leland Stanford's gold mine) which SP maintains to run the occasional freight train and also gets paid to run caltrain on it. I haven't been following the whole electrification effort (except seeing it happen): will S&P still run diesel freight on those tracks?
  - Lammy 3y ago
    UP absorbed SP in 1996: https://www.uprr.com/aboutup/history/decision.pdf https://www.uprr.com/aboutup/history/decision.pdf Here are some videos from when SP ran the “Peninsula Commute” <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peninsula_Commute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peninsula_Commute> service before the formation of Caltrain: — Fairbanks-Morse Train Masters on the SP Peninsula Commute in 1972 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XElWHtywY6I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XElWHtywY6I — SP Peninsula Commute (February 26, 1985) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqORVlDs4lQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqORVlDs4lQ — 1970s Southern Pacific Commuter Parade https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_-BgistV-w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_-BgistV-w Before 1975 it ran to the old 3rd & Townsend depot instead of 4th & King like today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_and_Townsend_Depot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_and_Townsend_Depot
  - ZanyProgrammer 3y ago
    Yes they'll unfortunately continue to run freight trains on those tracks. Also the corridor down to Gilroy from Tamien won't be electrified.
    - gumby 3y ago
      What’s unfortunate about them running those freight trains? It’s a greener way to transport freight than a bunch of trucks. (I used to live not far from a crossing in Palo Alto and they had to toot their horn as they went past at 2 am but I can hardly call it burdensome)
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
jjfoooo4 3y ago
Can you elaborate on what you by them running three incompatible fleets?
- javawizard 3y ago
  I think they're referring to: - The standard BART fleet - eBART: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBART https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBART - The Oakland Connector: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_Airport_Connector https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_Airport_Connector All of which use completely different and mutually incompatible rolling stock.

dehrmann 3y ago

> the trains still have to be designed and built for the particular system in other ways Aren't Caltrain's new electric trains essentially off-the-shelf? A few years ago when they needed more capacity, they bought more bi-level Bombardier cars from another agency. They went into service without being repainted. Fixing the gauge mistake will probably never pay for itself (NYC can't even settle on a car width), but it'll be a never-ending headache and tax for the agency.

andbberger 3y ago
they were off the shelf into caltrain got their grubby hands into the procurement process! they are about twice as powerful as standard KISSs. also stadler had to install an extra powerful air compressor so they can ding their fucking bell
danans 3y ago
Caltrain shares track with freight rail, and doesn't run trains nearly as closely or frequently as BART. No other type of train makes sense to run on BART's tracks.
bryananderson 3y ago
The Caltrain KISSes are not really off the shelf, in many ways, good and bad and ugly. The (arguably) good: 1) they have a boxier profile than the standard KISS, which some have complained about, but the reason the European version is less boxy is because Europe has a more restrictive loading gauge (the allowable cross-section of the vehicle), resulting in a more cramped upper level. Caltrain doesn’t have this issue, and so the upper level will not be cramped. 2) The Caltrain KISS is more powerful than the standard, which would allow for a faster top speed… if the corridor was upgraded to make use of it, which it is not. Maybe someday. The bad/silly: two sets of doors… a higher set since HSR might allegedly someday come to this corridor and require changing the platform height, and a lower set because that ain’t happening for a long time, if ever. I think there are some other bad/silly things which I’ve willfully forgotten about (I think they fucked up the ADA lifts somehow?), which I’m sure are documented somewhere on Clem Tillier’s excellent blog.[0] The ugly: “buy America” requirements forced Stadler to build an entire factory in the US, raising the cost by over 50% compared to the standard KISS. This is the bad kind of industrial policy which raises costs without actually building up US industrial capacity in this field (if Stadler closed the plant tomorrow, the US wouldn’t retain any expertise or capacity to build trains). [0] https://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com https://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com

mrWiz 3y ago

> Also, BART doesn't share tracks with any other system, so there's no reason to do it for compatiblity's sake either. Isn't that a chicken/egg issue? How could BART share tracks with systems using incompatible rails?