5 ms·

>That part has always bugged me. The Lucifer is always depicted from the Bible's point of view. There are no Gospels Of Hell that give Satan's viewpoint. Satan

>That part has always bugged me. The Lucifer is always depicted from the Bible's point of view. There are no Gospels Of Hell that give Satan's viewpoint. Satan, as a figure was created (and described) by Christians. So it can't be anything but what it says on the tin. It's not a real person whose biography they could have lied about - it's a creation they made of words, and those particular words define him. You could reject their whole teachings and universe, but you can't really say "but what if Satan is actually good?", while accepting he exists. If he was good he just wouldn't be Satan. So it makes as little sense as asking "what if Moby Dick was really a rabbit?" - when Moby Dick only existed as a literary whale Melville conjured. Similarly, as much as Satan is anything, and is useful for anything, it's for embodying the specific character he was described to be with the specific backstory. You could write an alternate Satan (like the gnostic gospels do or Milton does), but that's fan-fiction then. The rabbit version of Moby Dick, not the "true" Moby Dick.

cyberax 3y ago
> It's not a real person whose biography they could have lied about - it's a creation they made of words A lot of Christians would object to that quite strenuously, and quite a few Muslims would stone you if you say these words in a wrong country. That's why it's important to highlight the inconsistencies in the very logic of the religion.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- coldtea 3y ago
  >A lot of Christians would object to that quite strenuously Does it matter for what we're discussing?
- DiggyJohnson 3y ago
  > That's why it's important to highlight the inconsistencies in the very logic of the religion. I strongly disagree. Important towards what end? And if that end is getting people to be less religious, I think this is one of the least effective ways to make that point. Trying to dissuade a religious person in the basis of the logical inconsistencies in their religion is the le atheist approach, and seems to be most compelling to the agnostic and atheist crowds.
Shorel 3y ago
> You could write an alternate Satan (like the gnostic gospels do or Milton does), but that's fan-fiction then. Yes, but Christianity is a fan-fiction of the Jewish bible. In the same way, the Quran is a fan-fiction of the former ones. And the Jewish bible is full of fan-fictions of previous stories, like Gilgamesh.
defrost 3y ago
Stories of "Satan" predate the Christians .. he sounds a lot like Mastema from the Book of Jubilees which dates back to at least 150 years pre Jesus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastema https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastema https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jubilees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jubilees Mastema being yet another variation on embodiments of Yetzer hara, cause made real of the inclination of man to do evil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yetzer_hara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yetzer_hara
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  It is said: According to [Jubilees], Hebrew is the language of Heaven, and was originally spoken by all creatures in the Garden, animals and man; however, the animals lost their power of speech when Adam and Eve were expelled. To which I respond: "Silflay hraka, u embleer rah!"
  - defrost 3y ago
    There's more to the world than the Levant and it's not just the British boiler bunnies with something to say: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbSxc6Y1aVA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbSxc6Y1aVA
    - 082349872349872 3y ago
      When I hear "chuffed" I think of how cockatoos put their feathers up over their lower beak when they're pleased with themselves (or sleepy); you can see Ngarritj and the others do this several times in that clip. (the hopping in the aboriginal ceremonies reminded me of the very avian caucasian dances: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ6FzIgKWl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ6FzIgKWl0 ; compare https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJHCaahJ4pY&t=52s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJHCaahJ4pY&t=52s )
      - defrost 3y ago
        Trad. aboriginal dance is very imitative (with creative twists), the movements of small animals, large animals, birds, etc are used for inspiration. Here you can see the children of the Crocodile Islands group use the music of caucasian islanders for their muse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-MucVWo-Pw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-MucVWo-Pw
nickpsecurity 3y ago
"Satan, as a figure was created (and described) by Christians." Satan is initially described with his methods in Genesis, a Jewish work. Evil people often use the same ones today, esp in advertising and politics. Analysis of his methods below: https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-8-how-temptation-works-genesis-31-7 https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-8-how-temptation-works-g... Later, Satan is in Job and Zechariah 3. He's accusing people hoping that they get taken down. By Genesis, we don't need to know anything more about Satan other than to avoid or resist him. By Job and Zechariah, we know he's a consistent, mortal enemy of humanity across many generations. God's Word reveals more later but not much. Why not? God's Word is about His relationship with and redemption of man through Jesus Christ. The books all combine into one story about how God saves us from ourselves for Himself by His grace and Christ's death. With that writing focus, he barely mentions most things in nature (eg angels). Same for most of the sciences. Why would God dig deep into a subordinate enemy in a book meant to glorify God? The other angle is, once forgiven by Christ, God's Word is training for righteousness. We're to focus on loving and imitating Christ, and loving and serving each other. Much of what's in the Word supports those goals in different ways. Reading about lying angels that hate us wouldn't help at all. If we bump into them, invoking Jesus' name is all it takes to deal with them. He'll finish them off later.

cyberax 3y ago

> It's not a real person whose biography they could have lied about - it's a creation they made of words A lot of Christians would object to that quite strenuously, and quite a few Muslims would stone you if you say these words in a wrong country. That's why it's important to highlight the inconsistencies in the very logic of the religion.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
coldtea 3y ago
>A lot of Christians would object to that quite strenuously Does it matter for what we're discussing?
DiggyJohnson 3y ago
> That's why it's important to highlight the inconsistencies in the very logic of the religion. I strongly disagree. Important towards what end? And if that end is getting people to be less religious, I think this is one of the least effective ways to make that point. Trying to dissuade a religious person in the basis of the logical inconsistencies in their religion is the le atheist approach, and seems to be most compelling to the agnostic and atheist crowds.

Shorel 3y ago

> You could write an alternate Satan (like the gnostic gospels do or Milton does), but that's fan-fiction then. Yes, but Christianity is a fan-fiction of the Jewish bible. In the same way, the Quran is a fan-fiction of the former ones. And the Jewish bible is full of fan-fictions of previous stories, like Gilgamesh.

defrost 3y ago

Stories of "Satan" predate the Christians .. he sounds a lot like Mastema from the Book of Jubilees which dates back to at least 150 years pre Jesus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastema https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastema https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jubilees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jubilees Mastema being yet another variation on embodiments of Yetzer hara, cause made real of the inclination of man to do evil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yetzer_hara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yetzer_hara

082349872349872 3y ago
It is said: According to [Jubilees], Hebrew is the language of Heaven, and was originally spoken by all creatures in the Garden, animals and man; however, the animals lost their power of speech when Adam and Eve were expelled. To which I respond: "Silflay hraka, u embleer rah!"
- defrost 3y ago
  There's more to the world than the Levant and it's not just the British boiler bunnies with something to say: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbSxc6Y1aVA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbSxc6Y1aVA
  - 082349872349872 3y ago
    When I hear "chuffed" I think of how cockatoos put their feathers up over their lower beak when they're pleased with themselves (or sleepy); you can see Ngarritj and the others do this several times in that clip. (the hopping in the aboriginal ceremonies reminded me of the very avian caucasian dances: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ6FzIgKWl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ6FzIgKWl0 ; compare https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJHCaahJ4pY&t=52s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJHCaahJ4pY&t=52s )
    - defrost 3y ago
      Trad. aboriginal dance is very imitative (with creative twists), the movements of small animals, large animals, birds, etc are used for inspiration. Here you can see the children of the Crocodile Islands group use the music of caucasian islanders for their muse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-MucVWo-Pw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-MucVWo-Pw

nickpsecurity 3y ago

"Satan, as a figure was created (and described) by Christians." Satan is initially described with his methods in Genesis, a Jewish work. Evil people often use the same ones today, esp in advertising and politics. Analysis of his methods below: https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-8-how-temptation-works-genesis-31-7 https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-8-how-temptation-works-g... Later, Satan is in Job and Zechariah 3. He's accusing people hoping that they get taken down. By Genesis, we don't need to know anything more about Satan other than to avoid or resist him. By Job and Zechariah, we know he's a consistent, mortal enemy of humanity across many generations. God's Word reveals more later but not much. Why not? God's Word is about His relationship with and redemption of man through Jesus Christ. The books all combine into one story about how God saves us from ourselves for Himself by His grace and Christ's death. With that writing focus, he barely mentions most things in nature (eg angels). Same for most of the sciences. Why would God dig deep into a subordinate enemy in a book meant to glorify God? The other angle is, once forgiven by Christ, God's Word is training for righteousness. We're to focus on loving and imitating Christ, and loving and serving each other. Much of what's in the Word supports those goals in different ways. Reading about lying angels that hate us wouldn't help at all. If we bump into them, invoking Jesus' name is all it takes to deal with them. He'll finish them off later.