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This is amazing. Thank you very much for all you've done and are still doing. Flutter changed my life as a developer. I learned so much thanks to its culture of

This is amazing. Thank you very much for all you've done and are still doing. Flutter changed my life as a developer. I learned so much thanks to its culture of openess & embracing community contributions. I feel like it's something unseen in most other open-source projects of this scale - I'm speaking this as a person that contributes regularly & has been invited to #flutter-hackers a few months ago:) I was at Fluttercon Berlin last year and I remember your talk where you said we need to build for the next 10 million developers who will use Flutter. Many tools that should exist for Flutter still don't exist. The fact that you did code push on Android & iOS is a great achievement (code push on desktop should be much easier to implement than iOS and it's only a matter of time for you) - but what's the next big thing you plan to accomplish at Shorebird?

eseidel 3y ago
Desktop is one of our most requested features: https://github.com/shorebirdtech/shorebird/issues/397 https://github.com/shorebirdtech/shorebird/issues/397 I suspect we still have many months of work to do for iOS and Android code push. Mostly a lot of features to build for larger customers. After that, I'm not sure. We have a long list of ideas. Do you have particular needs around Flutter you'd like us to address?
- bartekpacia 3y ago
  I feel like the build system situation in Flutter is really unfortunate. For Android there's Gradle, for iOS/macOS there's Xcode (xcodebuild), CMake for Linux, some Visual Studio-something for Windows and so on. This causes problems at scale – reliable, incremental, cross-platform builds are very hard/impossible. Same goes for splitting the build work across multiple workers (aka remote build execution). I did some research on this and looks like Bazel is the tool designed to solve this kind of problems. Of course the cost of Bazel adoption is huge but at a certain scale it makes a lot of sense. As the number of huge Flutter codebases grows I think this problem will become more pervasive. I read on flutter/flutter repo that Google has Bazel rules for Flutter, but they're internal and they're not interested in open-sourcing them.
  - eseidel 3y ago
    I agree 100%. Flutter needs a real build system. Bazel could be that? Feels better than inventing a new one. Google has Flutter and Dart rules, yes, but they were started so long ago (for Google AdWords, which uses Dart on the Web), and historically were very tied to internal Google oddities. If we went with Bazel, we'd just write new ones publicly.
    - 392 3y ago
      Could write them for Buck2 and avoid the old bazelisms. But already need a jvm I guess so bazel is no harm.
      - bartekpacia 3y ago
        What do you mean by bazelisms? Is it akin to bashisms? :-)
    - bartekpacia 3y ago
      Yes, IMHO the world doesn't need another build system. Bazel sounds great, and the mobile development community seems to be converging arond it as the go-to tool for huge apps, e.g. see rules_xcodeproj [0]. It'd be a lot of work, because no good Bazel rules for Dart exist (there is [0] which is old and unmaintained, although it was recently forked [2] by a Google engineer working on Flutter), and of course, no rules for Flutter exist as well. Another problem here is that a lot of flutter_tools [3] code assumes that Android project uses Gradle, and iOS project uses Xcode. After some investigation, it looks that to change this situation one could either: (1) reimplement flutter_tools in Bazel, or (2a) contribute to flutter_tools to work with Bazel, or (2b) fork flutter_tools to work with Bazel (like you forked the engine) Each of these is quite a lot of work. I'm curious to hear what you think about this. [0]: https://github.com/MobileNativeFoundation/rules_xcodeproj https://github.com/MobileNativeFoundation/rules_xcodeproj [1]: https://github.com/cbracken/rules_dart https://github.com/cbracken/rules_dart [2]: https://github.com/matanlurey/rules_dart https://github.com/matanlurey/rules_dart [3]: https://github.com/flutter/flutter/tree/master/packages/flutter_tools https://github.com/flutter/flutter/tree/master/packages/flut...

eseidel 3y ago

Desktop is one of our most requested features: https://github.com/shorebirdtech/shorebird/issues/397 https://github.com/shorebirdtech/shorebird/issues/397 I suspect we still have many months of work to do for iOS and Android code push. Mostly a lot of features to build for larger customers. After that, I'm not sure. We have a long list of ideas. Do you have particular needs around Flutter you'd like us to address?

bartekpacia 3y ago
I feel like the build system situation in Flutter is really unfortunate. For Android there's Gradle, for iOS/macOS there's Xcode (xcodebuild), CMake for Linux, some Visual Studio-something for Windows and so on. This causes problems at scale – reliable, incremental, cross-platform builds are very hard/impossible. Same goes for splitting the build work across multiple workers (aka remote build execution). I did some research on this and looks like Bazel is the tool designed to solve this kind of problems. Of course the cost of Bazel adoption is huge but at a certain scale it makes a lot of sense. As the number of huge Flutter codebases grows I think this problem will become more pervasive. I read on flutter/flutter repo that Google has Bazel rules for Flutter, but they're internal and they're not interested in open-sourcing them.
- eseidel 3y ago
  I agree 100%. Flutter needs a real build system. Bazel could be that? Feels better than inventing a new one. Google has Flutter and Dart rules, yes, but they were started so long ago (for Google AdWords, which uses Dart on the Web), and historically were very tied to internal Google oddities. If we went with Bazel, we'd just write new ones publicly.
  - 392 3y ago
    Could write them for Buck2 and avoid the old bazelisms. But already need a jvm I guess so bazel is no harm.
    - bartekpacia 3y ago
      What do you mean by bazelisms? Is it akin to bashisms? :-)
  - bartekpacia 3y ago
    Yes, IMHO the world doesn't need another build system. Bazel sounds great, and the mobile development community seems to be converging arond it as the go-to tool for huge apps, e.g. see rules_xcodeproj [0]. It'd be a lot of work, because no good Bazel rules for Dart exist (there is [0] which is old and unmaintained, although it was recently forked [2] by a Google engineer working on Flutter), and of course, no rules for Flutter exist as well. Another problem here is that a lot of flutter_tools [3] code assumes that Android project uses Gradle, and iOS project uses Xcode. After some investigation, it looks that to change this situation one could either: (1) reimplement flutter_tools in Bazel, or (2a) contribute to flutter_tools to work with Bazel, or (2b) fork flutter_tools to work with Bazel (like you forked the engine) Each of these is quite a lot of work. I'm curious to hear what you think about this. [0]: https://github.com/MobileNativeFoundation/rules_xcodeproj https://github.com/MobileNativeFoundation/rules_xcodeproj [1]: https://github.com/cbracken/rules_dart https://github.com/cbracken/rules_dart [2]: https://github.com/matanlurey/rules_dart https://github.com/matanlurey/rules_dart [3]: https://github.com/flutter/flutter/tree/master/packages/flutter_tools https://github.com/flutter/flutter/tree/master/packages/flut...