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Apple and third party developers were collectively much better prepared to transition to ARM, to the point that it was totally seamless. Developers were experi

Apple and third party developers were collectively much better prepared to transition to ARM, to the point that it was totally seamless. Developers were experienced with ARM on iOS, and Apple had a robust dual-binary & backward compatibility system to make sure all apps ran smoothly. I don't anticipate this level of compatibility with Arm on Windows. You're going to get your new machine, and many if not most of your apps won't run. The intel simulator performance will suffer. Sometimes the migration path needs even more investment than the end product.

lvass 3y ago
I think it's much easier to do if you're abandoning video games entirely, something that would make no sense for windows. The only reason I'd buy a non-amd64 PC is if it's better at running amd64 software than amd64 processors.
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  Having seen what box64 can do on my phone, I don't think it'd be that terrible. The graphics intensive system calls are all native system library code. The CPU parts will run slower, of course, but if they can beat the M3, I don't think the result would be all that bad.
- tonymet 3y ago
  ARM has tremendous efficiency benefits. I'd happily trade off top-line performance for 3x battery life and no fans
jsheard 3y ago
I'm more concerned about drivers than apps, because that's where you'll absolutely need native ARM builds rather than being able to fall back on emulation.
- tonymet 3y ago
  extremely good point. Also drivers can be even more disruptive. You have a scanner you use 1 / mo but for a critical business. Everything's great on your new Arm / Windows laptop and then you find out the 5 y/o scanner driver doesn't work. Your meeting is in the morning.
  - rsynnott 3y ago
    Not sure about modern Windows, but on modern MacOS and Linux, at least, drivers for things like scanners and printers are generally user-mode, so can run under Rosetta-type stuff.
    - tonymet 3y ago
      I'm not an expert, but it seems that Windows does have a framework call User-Mode Driver Framework, but that wouldn't help with the bulk of conventional drivers that were written in kernel-mode. Going forward it could help though but that would take years https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/wdf/user-mode-driver-framework-frequently-asked-questions https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/w...
tonymet 3y ago
Another good comparison is WSL on windows vs Unix interface on MacOS. Ignore the technical limitations for a sec and just think about the user experience. WSL is far less usable due to hardware, networking and filesystem inconsistencies when compared to MacOS's complete native integration. Now I like WSL and use it as my daily driver, but the UX is not complete enough for mass market. This ARM transition needs to be utterly seamless. 100% compatibility, 100% performance within a year and double-click ease of use
- stefan_ 3y ago
  I don't get it, WSL is fundamentally not a mass market feature. Meanwhile the "Unix interface" on MacOS is ancient stuff that everyone who actually wants to use it immediately replaces wholesale with something from brew or whatever is en vogue.
  - tonymet 3y ago
    You're right in some sense. The Unix interface (Darwin) is the POSIX api & toolchain that Homebrew tools are built on . Yes the included CLI tools are primitive. That Homebrew works so well IMO is a testament to Darwin
- tick_tock_tick 3y ago
  Really I find the exact opposite issue. Way to many things have started to differ between Mac and Linux for Mac to be of any real value. It's actually a negative in a lot of ways because it's close enough to trick you. I've had to switch to just native linux but when I don't have my work laptop WSL works perfectly for all our tests while Mac fails.
  - jwells89 3y ago
    Part of this is that a lot of things have become a lot more tightly coupled with Linux in the past couple decades. OS X Snow Leopard, often positioned as the “best” macOS release, also had a number of significant differences from Linux, but those differences were more frequently accounted for in software.
imglorp 3y ago
If I wipe the windows as usual, ARM Linux should scream on here. With the usual new machine driver drama.
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  That would require drivers, though. With Qualcomm producing the CPUs, we'll probably need an Ahasi-scale project to make Linux usable on these devices, and that won't happen unless Windows on ARM takes off.
  - lvass 3y ago
    https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-6.8-ARM-Changes https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-6.8-ARM-Changes
    - jeroenhd 3y ago
      https://www.phoronix.com/news/Snapdragon-8-Gen-3-Linux-6.8 https://www.phoronix.com/news/Snapdragon-8-Gen-3-Linux-6.8 > Granted, this is just about the SoC support and Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 devices of upcoming smartphones/devices will still need their respective Device Tree files added to the kernel along with any other peripheral driver support or pieces like the Qualcomm AI engine we haven't seen open-source patches for yet. Another article seems to go into more detail (https://www.phoronix.com/news/Qualcomm-Mainline-Linux-2024 https://www.phoronix.com/news/Qualcomm-Mainline-Linux-2024): > But still a work-in-progress is audio support, DP Alt-Mode, enabling the DSPs, USB-C power delivery, and GPU acceleration. Hopefully the hardware is similar enough to older models that it's not too difficult to port existing open source GPU drivers, but with Qualcomm, I'll believe it when I see it.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
sitzkrieg 3y ago
i read this with a smile while program under rosetta crashes for the third time today
wvenable 3y ago
Microsoft sabotaged their ARM ecosystem decades ago with their restrictive policies. The reality is that getting most Windows applications to run on ARM will be as simple as a re-compile. If Windows on ARM is unsuccessful it won't be due to technical issues but rather social ecosystem issues.
- wtallis 3y ago
  As simple as a recompile, which is not simple at all when you have a ton of third-party dependencies that are closed-source. Some applications will have (or already had) an easy time porting, while others will be forever stuck in x86 DLL hell.
  - wvenable 3y ago
    ARM64EC is one of Microsoft's mediation to this. It allows incremental porting of applications to ARM.
- TiredOfLife 3y ago
  The reality is that getting most Windows applications to run on ARM will be as simple as simply running them
- faeriechangling 3y ago
  Never had all that much of an issue running pretty much anything with Arm Windows on Apple Silicon.
sillywalk 3y ago
I think it's also a chicken and egg problem. How many people have Windows ARM laptops, and how much incentive / how easy is it for developers to make their apps ARM-native? There was some talk earlier about the Windows equivalent to 'fat-binaries', the new ABI and executable format. http://www.emulators.com/docs/abc_arm64ec_explained.htm http://www.emulators.com/docs/abc_arm64ec_explained.htm https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39806746 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39806746
- tonymet 3y ago
  You're right. In those cases a lot of up-front investment needs to be made to hit critical mass
madsbuch 3y ago
The first year or two were a mess with support for Apple. I remember as late as 2023 to struggle with running certain, modern, tech stacks on the MBP M1. It is only within the last year that I feel like the ecosystem has entirely cought up. Obviously MS will benefit from this, if they are able to run, eg., arm64 docker images etc.
- bee_rider 3y ago
  I didn’t hear consumer complaining about it much. I recall people complaining about things like… was it docker? Other dev tools. But programmers are a niche, and a technically competent niche that can both get into trouble and find other solutions. It is essentially the opposite of consumer support.
  - madsbuch 3y ago
    A consumer is happy as long as they can run Edge on their computer and log in to Facebook. They will not complain about windows on ARM either. However, we can definitely agree that certain sectors will struggle more with Windows on ARM. My intuition is that a lot of really conservative industries run on windows. Some with a bespoke program for Windows 95 they still keep running on XP.
bee_rider 3y ago
I agree with you. But you don’t need to anticipate, right? This is like attempt number, what, 4 for Windows on ARM? Or maybe we could see this as a continuation of one of their previous failures. Windows will never leave x86. The only reason to use Windows is that it is the legacy platform for x86 PC type programs.
yread 3y ago
Seamless? How long was it that you couldn't even run Docker?

lvass 3y ago

I think it's much easier to do if you're abandoning video games entirely, something that would make no sense for windows. The only reason I'd buy a non-amd64 PC is if it's better at running amd64 software than amd64 processors.

jeroenhd 3y ago
Having seen what box64 can do on my phone, I don't think it'd be that terrible. The graphics intensive system calls are all native system library code. The CPU parts will run slower, of course, but if they can beat the M3, I don't think the result would be all that bad.
tonymet 3y ago
ARM has tremendous efficiency benefits. I'd happily trade off top-line performance for 3x battery life and no fans

jsheard 3y ago

I'm more concerned about drivers than apps, because that's where you'll absolutely need native ARM builds rather than being able to fall back on emulation.

tonymet 3y ago
extremely good point. Also drivers can be even more disruptive. You have a scanner you use 1 / mo but for a critical business. Everything's great on your new Arm / Windows laptop and then you find out the 5 y/o scanner driver doesn't work. Your meeting is in the morning.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  Not sure about modern Windows, but on modern MacOS and Linux, at least, drivers for things like scanners and printers are generally user-mode, so can run under Rosetta-type stuff.
  - tonymet 3y ago
    I'm not an expert, but it seems that Windows does have a framework call User-Mode Driver Framework, but that wouldn't help with the bulk of conventional drivers that were written in kernel-mode. Going forward it could help though but that would take years https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/wdf/user-mode-driver-framework-frequently-asked-questions https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/w...

tonymet 3y ago

Another good comparison is WSL on windows vs Unix interface on MacOS. Ignore the technical limitations for a sec and just think about the user experience. WSL is far less usable due to hardware, networking and filesystem inconsistencies when compared to MacOS's complete native integration. Now I like WSL and use it as my daily driver, but the UX is not complete enough for mass market. This ARM transition needs to be utterly seamless. 100% compatibility, 100% performance within a year and double-click ease of use

stefan_ 3y ago
I don't get it, WSL is fundamentally not a mass market feature. Meanwhile the "Unix interface" on MacOS is ancient stuff that everyone who actually wants to use it immediately replaces wholesale with something from brew or whatever is en vogue.
- tonymet 3y ago
  You're right in some sense. The Unix interface (Darwin) is the POSIX api & toolchain that Homebrew tools are built on . Yes the included CLI tools are primitive. That Homebrew works so well IMO is a testament to Darwin
tick_tock_tick 3y ago
Really I find the exact opposite issue. Way to many things have started to differ between Mac and Linux for Mac to be of any real value. It's actually a negative in a lot of ways because it's close enough to trick you. I've had to switch to just native linux but when I don't have my work laptop WSL works perfectly for all our tests while Mac fails.
- jwells89 3y ago
  Part of this is that a lot of things have become a lot more tightly coupled with Linux in the past couple decades. OS X Snow Leopard, often positioned as the “best” macOS release, also had a number of significant differences from Linux, but those differences were more frequently accounted for in software.

imglorp 3y ago

If I wipe the windows as usual, ARM Linux should scream on here. With the usual new machine driver drama.

jeroenhd 3y ago
That would require drivers, though. With Qualcomm producing the CPUs, we'll probably need an Ahasi-scale project to make Linux usable on these devices, and that won't happen unless Windows on ARM takes off.
- lvass 3y ago
  https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-6.8-ARM-Changes https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-6.8-ARM-Changes
  - jeroenhd 3y ago
    https://www.phoronix.com/news/Snapdragon-8-Gen-3-Linux-6.8 https://www.phoronix.com/news/Snapdragon-8-Gen-3-Linux-6.8 > Granted, this is just about the SoC support and Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 devices of upcoming smartphones/devices will still need their respective Device Tree files added to the kernel along with any other peripheral driver support or pieces like the Qualcomm AI engine we haven't seen open-source patches for yet. Another article seems to go into more detail (https://www.phoronix.com/news/Qualcomm-Mainline-Linux-2024 https://www.phoronix.com/news/Qualcomm-Mainline-Linux-2024): > But still a work-in-progress is audio support, DP Alt-Mode, enabling the DSPs, USB-C power delivery, and GPU acceleration. Hopefully the hardware is similar enough to older models that it's not too difficult to port existing open source GPU drivers, but with Qualcomm, I'll believe it when I see it.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

sitzkrieg 3y ago

i read this with a smile while program under rosetta crashes for the third time today

wvenable 3y ago

Microsoft sabotaged their ARM ecosystem decades ago with their restrictive policies. The reality is that getting most Windows applications to run on ARM will be as simple as a re-compile. If Windows on ARM is unsuccessful it won't be due to technical issues but rather social ecosystem issues.

wtallis 3y ago
As simple as a recompile, which is not simple at all when you have a ton of third-party dependencies that are closed-source. Some applications will have (or already had) an easy time porting, while others will be forever stuck in x86 DLL hell.
- wvenable 3y ago
  ARM64EC is one of Microsoft's mediation to this. It allows incremental porting of applications to ARM.
TiredOfLife 3y ago
The reality is that getting most Windows applications to run on ARM will be as simple as simply running them
faeriechangling 3y ago
Never had all that much of an issue running pretty much anything with Arm Windows on Apple Silicon.

sillywalk 3y ago

I think it's also a chicken and egg problem. How many people have Windows ARM laptops, and how much incentive / how easy is it for developers to make their apps ARM-native? There was some talk earlier about the Windows equivalent to 'fat-binaries', the new ABI and executable format. http://www.emulators.com/docs/abc_arm64ec_explained.htm http://www.emulators.com/docs/abc_arm64ec_explained.htm https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39806746 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39806746

tonymet 3y ago
You're right. In those cases a lot of up-front investment needs to be made to hit critical mass

madsbuch 3y ago

The first year or two were a mess with support for Apple. I remember as late as 2023 to struggle with running certain, modern, tech stacks on the MBP M1. It is only within the last year that I feel like the ecosystem has entirely cought up. Obviously MS will benefit from this, if they are able to run, eg., arm64 docker images etc.

bee_rider 3y ago
I didn’t hear consumer complaining about it much. I recall people complaining about things like… was it docker? Other dev tools. But programmers are a niche, and a technically competent niche that can both get into trouble and find other solutions. It is essentially the opposite of consumer support.
- madsbuch 3y ago
  A consumer is happy as long as they can run Edge on their computer and log in to Facebook. They will not complain about windows on ARM either. However, we can definitely agree that certain sectors will struggle more with Windows on ARM. My intuition is that a lot of really conservative industries run on windows. Some with a bespoke program for Windows 95 they still keep running on XP.

bee_rider 3y ago

I agree with you. But you don’t need to anticipate, right? This is like attempt number, what, 4 for Windows on ARM? Or maybe we could see this as a continuation of one of their previous failures. Windows will never leave x86. The only reason to use Windows is that it is the legacy platform for x86 PC type programs.

yread 3y ago

Seamless? How long was it that you couldn't even run Docker?