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The solution to traffic is definitely not self driving cars. If truly self driving cars became available which cost no more than comparable (non self driving) c

The solution to traffic is definitely not self driving cars. If truly self driving cars became available which cost no more than comparable (non self driving) cars, then the total cost of driving would go down. Here in “total cost” I’m including the obvious costs like insurance and gas/electricity as well as the total physical energy required driving. With true self driving (i.e. not Tesla FSD in which many are left stressed wondering if it will work right), the act of driving will be easier. In fact, the cost of sitting in traffic will be lower since you can space out while the car does the work. The natural consequence is that the amount of traffic on roads will _increase_ and overall traffic will increase. The solution to traffic is the same as it’s always been: increase throughput on fewer vehicles. In other words, you should take the bus or the train or increase carpooling or really anything that gets fewer vehicles out of the transportation network. Most importantly the solution is to be less individualistic and more focused on the problem as a collective. Self driving cars are the opposite of that solution.

porphyra 3y ago
The problem is that car-dependence is a problem with a lot of hysteresis to it: If everyone already has cars, it takes a lot to get people out of cars --- if someone already has a car, taking the bus to go somewhere slower than driving is completely out of the question. Conversely, if everyone doesn't have cars, it takes a lot to get people to drive cars due to the upfront cost of car ownership. I think more transit-oriented city development is definitely the way to go. But nibbling away at the problem is going to take a long time. I think robotaxis are definitely going to play a part in this: by being compatible with existing car-dependent infrastructure and providing a similar speed and flexibility as privately owned cars, existing car owners are more likely to give up personal car ownership. Once people stop owning cars, they would be more amenable to development that gets rid of parking spots, improves walkability, increases density, implements mass transit, and so on.
- dfxm12 3y ago
  Why do you say robotaxis specifically here, compared to taxis, or rideshare apps, public transit, etc.? It seems like the benefits you list for robotaxis apply to the others too.
  - porphyra 3y ago
    You are right that the benefits for robotaxis applies to the others too. Personally, I'm rooting for robotaxis because it's simply cheaper without needing the human driver. Theoretically, this also makes it more equitable. Just like maids and servants, I think that human-driven rideshare is only viable by exploiting a lower paid underclass. If the rideshare drivers were paid more, then it becomes too expensive for most people to use for daily transportation. As for buses, they have many of the same drawbacks as personal cars (gets stuck in traffic) while having more disadvantages like slower speed, making them an unattractive option for people who already own cars. Buses are incredibly good for already dense cities where people aren't already car-dependent, however, and some of these drawbacks can also be overcome with dedicated lanes and other tricks. In my opinion, the king of urban transportation is undoubtedly the grade separated subway or elevated train, which, if implemented properly, can have a speed advantage over cars in some cases since they are immune to traffic and weather conditions despite needing to have many stops. Of course, this is also expensive to build and requires high density to be viable.
    - CogitoCogito 3y ago
      > You are right that the benefits for robotaxis applies to the others too. Personally, I'm rooting for robotaxis because it's simply cheaper without needing the human driver. Hence they would increase traffic and slow down commutes. Maybe we’re fine with that, but we should at least be honest with ourselves.

porphyra 3y ago

The problem is that car-dependence is a problem with a lot of hysteresis to it: If everyone already has cars, it takes a lot to get people out of cars --- if someone already has a car, taking the bus to go somewhere slower than driving is completely out of the question. Conversely, if everyone doesn't have cars, it takes a lot to get people to drive cars due to the upfront cost of car ownership. I think more transit-oriented city development is definitely the way to go. But nibbling away at the problem is going to take a long time. I think robotaxis are definitely going to play a part in this: by being compatible with existing car-dependent infrastructure and providing a similar speed and flexibility as privately owned cars, existing car owners are more likely to give up personal car ownership. Once people stop owning cars, they would be more amenable to development that gets rid of parking spots, improves walkability, increases density, implements mass transit, and so on.

dfxm12 3y ago
Why do you say robotaxis specifically here, compared to taxis, or rideshare apps, public transit, etc.? It seems like the benefits you list for robotaxis apply to the others too.
- porphyra 3y ago
  You are right that the benefits for robotaxis applies to the others too. Personally, I'm rooting for robotaxis because it's simply cheaper without needing the human driver. Theoretically, this also makes it more equitable. Just like maids and servants, I think that human-driven rideshare is only viable by exploiting a lower paid underclass. If the rideshare drivers were paid more, then it becomes too expensive for most people to use for daily transportation. As for buses, they have many of the same drawbacks as personal cars (gets stuck in traffic) while having more disadvantages like slower speed, making them an unattractive option for people who already own cars. Buses are incredibly good for already dense cities where people aren't already car-dependent, however, and some of these drawbacks can also be overcome with dedicated lanes and other tricks. In my opinion, the king of urban transportation is undoubtedly the grade separated subway or elevated train, which, if implemented properly, can have a speed advantage over cars in some cases since they are immune to traffic and weather conditions despite needing to have many stops. Of course, this is also expensive to build and requires high density to be viable.
  - CogitoCogito 3y ago
    > You are right that the benefits for robotaxis applies to the others too. Personally, I'm rooting for robotaxis because it's simply cheaper without needing the human driver. Hence they would increase traffic and slow down commutes. Maybe we’re fine with that, but we should at least be honest with ourselves.