4 ms·

How Dating Sites Automate Racism

Bostonian 3y ago
It would make as much sense to say that sites allowing straight men to filter for "cisgender" women automate homophobia and transphobia. People should be allowed to filter mates for any reason without guilt. Not wanting to date people of race X does not mean you think people of race X do not deserve equal rights, which I think is a better definition of racism (or perhaps racialism). I am Indian-American and not in the dating pool (I'm married). If I were dating, I would not want to waste time on dates with women who don't want to date Indian-American men.
- zyklu5 3y ago
  Americans have been brainwashed to conflate preference for prejudice.
  - slowmovintarget 3y ago
    Well... no. The academy over here does tend to train weaponization of outrage and has actively attempted to replace traditional ideas of morality with oppressor-oppressed dichotomies to varying results. This article is one of those results.
  - Ajay-p 3y ago
    Because it then creates a victim class which can use that "victim" status to for change and gain power for their position. That is the way America works now.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ska 3y ago
  Isn't the article more about algorithmic sorting that you don't have any control over, vs e.g. filters? Or another way of looking at it, the service filtering you rather than you filtering the service. It doesn't seem like you are talking about the same thing as the author, but I didn't read it that closely so may have missed something. There is at least something potentially interesting there, if an algorithmic sorting approach is responsive to a social bias, there are obvious mechanisms by which it could end up amplifying that bias, rather than just representing it.
- xp84 3y ago
  Personally I didn't use an ethnicity filter (was there one?) a long time ago when I was using dating sites. But there are a lot of legitimate non-racist cultural reasons why someone might! For instance, if one wants a lot of extended family around, being very involved with your family, Indian culture is phenomenal (I'm only adjacent to that via my in-law's spouse, and they treat us as their own too). It's rare to find White Americans -- at least on the West Coast whose families are so close-knit. Of course, some people probably don't want that and would rather visit every few weeks and be at arm's length from their families. Obviously other examples abound, such as races that may serve as a proxy for religious belief, useful for the devout.
- underlipton 3y ago
  And yet, to deny that there's a difference in social ramifications for saying, "No blacks, fats, or femmes," to someone's face in a bar, versus only swiping right on people who could be mistaken for your twin/parent, is to deny reality. The point is that the technology makes a qualitative difference. >I am Indian-American What caste? That is to say, what was your ancestors' equivalent experience of racism? Persecutor or persecuted? This is relevant because you seem to have brought up your identity to lend credence to your argument as a person of color. I think it's fair to fully unpack that.
  - flumpcakes 3y ago
    > What caste? That is to say, what was your ancestors' equivalent experience of racism? Persecutor or persecuted? This seems strange: to label entire people as either the victims or perpetrators of racism solely based on their caste.
    - underlipton 3y ago
      Yes, that is expressly what caste entails. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10764522/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10764522/ >The Indian caste system is one of the oldest systematized and institutionalized forms of oppression, having been in existence for over 3,000 years (Thapa et al., 2021). https://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/general/caste0801.pdf https://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/general/caste0801.pdf >In much of Asia and parts of Africa, caste is the basis for the definition and exclusion of distinct population groups by reason of their descent. Using one's status as a person of color to legitimize carrying water for racism doesn't work if someone is upper caste. They've essentially seen all the benefits of their ancestral form of racism; their arguing for it carries no moral weight. I would say the same of someone from a noble lineage in Europe if they were to make the same statements.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  My gut reaction is similar. If you ignore the victim focused narrative of the article, I think there is still a reasonable case to be made that some users could be served better. Some users may be more or less open minded than the predictive model on dating sites. It seems like the best practice would be to give users a choice over how much screening the model does.
- subjectsigma 3y ago
  I think the problems are specifically due to the nature of it being online and automated. If someone has preferences that’s fine; that doesn’t prevent them from interacting with people outside their preferred races. Maybe they’ll meet someone who surprises them. Maybe they won’t. But at least people get a chance and it happens organically. But imagine it’s the future, you’re Minority A and the social default is to just block you entirely with no chance whatsoever, and oh 99% of people not in your demographic use online dating primarily. Your pool of potential candidates is unfairly tiny and all because society just decided one part of your personality (your race) is a deal-breaker. Offline these things just aren’t as big of problems. But it seems like if we’re not careful they could become big problems.
mik1998 3y ago
Telling people they need to find you more attractive or else they're racist and evil is a comically idiotic thing to advocate for.
flyinglizard 3y ago
There's a lot of guilt and repression going on in America. Can't be too healthy.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
nostromo 3y ago
> “Because when you see the data they have on you, it might make you think twice about the trade-offs. I was able to see my geolocation data, all the interest groups that I had linked from my Facebook account, every picture I had uploaded, and every single conversation with a match that I had had.” This Harvard researcher is surprised that dating apps store your pictures and messages? Is she for real?
- nindalf 3y ago
  She says that because it works. It’s important to say things that confirm people’s existing biases because it makes them more likely to believe the other things you’re saying. “She’s spot on about my data being misused, so it’s possible she’s right about this racism theory.” Here’s an example of people all to ready to believe an article that follows this narrative, from HN 10 days ago - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39858850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39858850
bowmessage 3y ago
How Job Sites Automate Experiencism
rappatic 3y ago
> "Users rated Asian men and Black women as less attractive than their counterparts..." Attraction isn't a choice or a preference. No one can control who they're attracted to. Dating sites "automating racism" = showing you people that you're likely to be attracted to. Nothing is wrong with that.
- readthenotes1 3y ago
  Funny how she made that out to be anti-Black and anti-Asian without confirming a similar bias against Black men and Asian women. It's almost as if it went counter to her desired narrative.
- Ajay-p 3y ago
  That is what I got out of the article, too. Attraction for most people is truly innate, it is not something they can really control. If someone prefers to only date within their race, culture, whatever, that should be fine. That is their personal choice; after all you don't have to date them if you don't like their preferences. This article just seems like more race-baiting and trying to identify a problem, and a victim class, where there really isn't one.
  - threatofrain 3y ago
    Attraction might not be something you have as much control over, but I wonder if it's something where parents have meaningfully more control? Will the experience of your sexuality really be unchanged if you grew up in US vs China? Muslim vs atheist household?
    - wincy 3y ago
      I think it’s just who you’re around when you’re hitting puberty, if I’m being honest. My school was pretty diverse mix of black and white, and a lot of my high school classmates got married to each other and are interracial couples. So send your kids to a diverse school with lots of intermingling and life will uhh, find a way.
    - 3y ago
flumpcakes 3y ago
There seems to be entire swathes of researchers that are just producing content for the culture war. Saying sexual preference is a form of prejudice is certainly a hot take.
underlipton 3y ago
[flagged]
- subjectsigma 3y ago
  I think it’s sad how out of touch with reality you are. These comments are saintly compared to what you would read on 4chan. The opinions expressed here are very much in line with how the average person feels; they are not far outside the Overton Window. You are the one in the thread making it personal and calling people’s ancestors racists (as if that somehow had anything to do with them or their opinion)
  - underlipton 3y ago
    >These comments are saintly compared to what you would read on 4chan. Uh huh... So I decided to test that theory. The first thread got the equivalent of flagged and killed, just like HN's. Strike one. The second: https://imgur.com/a/WtDAL9o https://imgur.com/a/WtDAL9o Certainly more uncouth, but essentially the same sentiments of 1) being incensed at the idea of being called racist for choosing who to date based on race (which it is), 2) being baselessly distrustful of the author's motives and methods, and 3) pushing pseudoscience about the nature of attraction across "races". Actually, the 4chan posters were occasionally more charitable (praising the article for pointing out the plight of non-white men) and open-minded (avoiding a fixation on the race issue by pointing out that other forms of discrimination, like heightism, rarely receive such attention). Meanwhile, HN is supposed to be a much more principled forum. There are a few posts of the sort mentioned above, but they're almost to a one down-voted. The fact that discourse here (where people are putting a screen name on their comments, even) gets anywhere close to the kind seen on 4chan is incredibly distressing. That's reality. In any case, I'm respectfully asking not to hear from you again. I don't think I have anything useful to gain from conversation with you and would like to be free from it going forward. I expect that you'll be reasonable.
    - subjectsigma 3y ago
      This is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever read on orange site. You clearly have zero self awareness and/or are trolling. If you like posting on 4chan, go there. If you read my other comment on the thread, you’ll find that I agreed with your core premise that racial filters for online dating are harmful. There were others too. I suppose you didn’t notice this or something because it wasn’t surrounded by slurs? Or you were too busy writing your pouty comment that got flagged? I don’t have any other explanation for why you think charitable comments on 4chan = good, charitable comments on HN = unacceptable. I’ll comment on whatever I like, if that happens to be what you posted I’ll leave that comment with zero hesitations.
xp84 3y ago
From the article: "Williams urged dating platforms to do more to improve the experience for minority users and protect them when they encounter racism, homophobia, transphobia, and ableism." Is it now transphobia if you go on a date and a person, it turns out, has failed to disclose a key detail about their sex, and as a result you reject them? I'm trying to figure what kind of other situation they might be referring to here. I am all in favor of someone being called to account for seeking out someone (because they're trans) on false pretenses in order to humiliate them or something, but if people are being upfront as they should be, it is unclear to me what transphobia harms they're talking about.
- Ajay-p 3y ago
  In some places, rejecting that person because they are trans could be considered a hate crime. Just because someone will not date me because I am Southeast Asian, or I won't date them because they are not the gender I prefer, does not make anyone racist or transphobic. It's a personal preference.
  - alphabettsy 3y ago
    There is nowhere that would be a hate crime. Absolute hyperbole.
    - Ajay-p 3y ago
      Maybe not a crime, but you've got to pay attention. Scotland is inching that. https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-42652947 https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-42652947
      - xp84 3y ago
        That's wild. Also this[1] one is interesting. Apparently the new hate crime law is being interpreted in a generous way toward the thoughtcrime offenders of Scotland so far (the "stirring up hate" is said to be a 'high bar'), but since it's based on a subjective standard, there's zero reason future governments can't revise their understanding of the law in a way that isn't so liberal. 1. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-68712471 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-68712471
strogonoff 3y ago
I believe it’s perfectly fine to say “I do not like the appearance of X”, “I do not like how the voice of Y sounds”, etc. Very few would argue that we should just command ourselves to like or not like some quality in a person. If, while gaining life experience, we learn to generalize (say, you find you never seem to romantically appreciate people who live in a particular geographic area), then that’s just that; if we are careful that this does not spill over into other areas of life then that’s your prerogative. I imagine this sort of generalization may cause one to miss out on interesting people, but that’s individual’s own business. I shouldn’t feel entitled that you like me; if I suspect you not liking me is a result of that sort of over-optimization on your part, then that’s tragedy but such is life.
hagbard_c 3y ago
[flagged]
trallnag 3y ago
Never used dating apps. Is there a way to filter by weight? Just came to my mind while researching the book's author
- TMWNN 3y ago
  You can always tell, eh?

It would make as much sense to say that sites allowing straight men to filter for "cisgender" women automate homophobia and transphobia. People should be allowed to filter mates for any reason without guilt. Not wanting to date people of race X does not mean you think people of race X do not deserve equal rights, which I think is a better definition of racism (or perhaps racialism). I am Indian-American and not in the dating pool (I'm married). If I were dating, I would not want to waste time on dates with women who don't want to date Indian-American men.

zyklu5 3y ago
Americans have been brainwashed to conflate preference for prejudice.
- slowmovintarget 3y ago
  Well... no. The academy over here does tend to train weaponization of outrage and has actively attempted to replace traditional ideas of morality with oppressor-oppressed dichotomies to varying results. This article is one of those results.
- Ajay-p 3y ago
  Because it then creates a victim class which can use that "victim" status to for change and gain power for their position. That is the way America works now.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ska 3y ago
Isn't the article more about algorithmic sorting that you don't have any control over, vs e.g. filters? Or another way of looking at it, the service filtering you rather than you filtering the service. It doesn't seem like you are talking about the same thing as the author, but I didn't read it that closely so may have missed something. There is at least something potentially interesting there, if an algorithmic sorting approach is responsive to a social bias, there are obvious mechanisms by which it could end up amplifying that bias, rather than just representing it.
xp84 3y ago
Personally I didn't use an ethnicity filter (was there one?) a long time ago when I was using dating sites. But there are a lot of legitimate non-racist cultural reasons why someone might! For instance, if one wants a lot of extended family around, being very involved with your family, Indian culture is phenomenal (I'm only adjacent to that via my in-law's spouse, and they treat us as their own too). It's rare to find White Americans -- at least on the West Coast whose families are so close-knit. Of course, some people probably don't want that and would rather visit every few weeks and be at arm's length from their families. Obviously other examples abound, such as races that may serve as a proxy for religious belief, useful for the devout.
underlipton 3y ago
And yet, to deny that there's a difference in social ramifications for saying, "No blacks, fats, or femmes," to someone's face in a bar, versus only swiping right on people who could be mistaken for your twin/parent, is to deny reality. The point is that the technology makes a qualitative difference. >I am Indian-American What caste? That is to say, what was your ancestors' equivalent experience of racism? Persecutor or persecuted? This is relevant because you seem to have brought up your identity to lend credence to your argument as a person of color. I think it's fair to fully unpack that.
- flumpcakes 3y ago
  > What caste? That is to say, what was your ancestors' equivalent experience of racism? Persecutor or persecuted? This seems strange: to label entire people as either the victims or perpetrators of racism solely based on their caste.
  - underlipton 3y ago
    Yes, that is expressly what caste entails. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10764522/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10764522/ >The Indian caste system is one of the oldest systematized and institutionalized forms of oppression, having been in existence for over 3,000 years (Thapa et al., 2021). https://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/general/caste0801.pdf https://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/general/caste0801.pdf >In much of Asia and parts of Africa, caste is the basis for the definition and exclusion of distinct population groups by reason of their descent. Using one's status as a person of color to legitimize carrying water for racism doesn't work if someone is upper caste. They've essentially seen all the benefits of their ancestral form of racism; their arguing for it carries no moral weight. I would say the same of someone from a noble lineage in Europe if they were to make the same statements.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
s1artibartfast 3y ago
My gut reaction is similar. If you ignore the victim focused narrative of the article, I think there is still a reasonable case to be made that some users could be served better. Some users may be more or less open minded than the predictive model on dating sites. It seems like the best practice would be to give users a choice over how much screening the model does.
subjectsigma 3y ago
I think the problems are specifically due to the nature of it being online and automated. If someone has preferences that’s fine; that doesn’t prevent them from interacting with people outside their preferred races. Maybe they’ll meet someone who surprises them. Maybe they won’t. But at least people get a chance and it happens organically. But imagine it’s the future, you’re Minority A and the social default is to just block you entirely with no chance whatsoever, and oh 99% of people not in your demographic use online dating primarily. Your pool of potential candidates is unfairly tiny and all because society just decided one part of your personality (your race) is a deal-breaker. Offline these things just aren’t as big of problems. But it seems like if we’re not careful they could become big problems.

mik1998 3y ago

Telling people they need to find you more attractive or else they're racist and evil is a comically idiotic thing to advocate for.

flyinglizard 3y ago

There's a lot of guilt and repression going on in America. Can't be too healthy.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

nostromo 3y ago

> “Because when you see the data they have on you, it might make you think twice about the trade-offs. I was able to see my geolocation data, all the interest groups that I had linked from my Facebook account, every picture I had uploaded, and every single conversation with a match that I had had.” This Harvard researcher is surprised that dating apps store your pictures and messages? Is she for real?

nindalf 3y ago
She says that because it works. It’s important to say things that confirm people’s existing biases because it makes them more likely to believe the other things you’re saying. “She’s spot on about my data being misused, so it’s possible she’s right about this racism theory.” Here’s an example of people all to ready to believe an article that follows this narrative, from HN 10 days ago - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39858850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39858850

bowmessage 3y ago

How Job Sites Automate Experiencism

rappatic 3y ago

> "Users rated Asian men and Black women as less attractive than their counterparts..." Attraction isn't a choice or a preference. No one can control who they're attracted to. Dating sites "automating racism" = showing you people that you're likely to be attracted to. Nothing is wrong with that.

readthenotes1 3y ago
Funny how she made that out to be anti-Black and anti-Asian without confirming a similar bias against Black men and Asian women. It's almost as if it went counter to her desired narrative.
Ajay-p 3y ago
That is what I got out of the article, too. Attraction for most people is truly innate, it is not something they can really control. If someone prefers to only date within their race, culture, whatever, that should be fine. That is their personal choice; after all you don't have to date them if you don't like their preferences. This article just seems like more race-baiting and trying to identify a problem, and a victim class, where there really isn't one.
- threatofrain 3y ago
  Attraction might not be something you have as much control over, but I wonder if it's something where parents have meaningfully more control? Will the experience of your sexuality really be unchanged if you grew up in US vs China? Muslim vs atheist household?
  - wincy 3y ago
    I think it’s just who you’re around when you’re hitting puberty, if I’m being honest. My school was pretty diverse mix of black and white, and a lot of my high school classmates got married to each other and are interracial couples. So send your kids to a diverse school with lots of intermingling and life will uhh, find a way.
  - 3y ago

flumpcakes 3y ago

There seems to be entire swathes of researchers that are just producing content for the culture war. Saying sexual preference is a form of prejudice is certainly a hot take.

underlipton 3y ago

[flagged]

subjectsigma 3y ago
I think it’s sad how out of touch with reality you are. These comments are saintly compared to what you would read on 4chan. The opinions expressed here are very much in line with how the average person feels; they are not far outside the Overton Window. You are the one in the thread making it personal and calling people’s ancestors racists (as if that somehow had anything to do with them or their opinion)
- underlipton 3y ago
  >These comments are saintly compared to what you would read on 4chan. Uh huh... So I decided to test that theory. The first thread got the equivalent of flagged and killed, just like HN's. Strike one. The second: https://imgur.com/a/WtDAL9o https://imgur.com/a/WtDAL9o Certainly more uncouth, but essentially the same sentiments of 1) being incensed at the idea of being called racist for choosing who to date based on race (which it is), 2) being baselessly distrustful of the author's motives and methods, and 3) pushing pseudoscience about the nature of attraction across "races". Actually, the 4chan posters were occasionally more charitable (praising the article for pointing out the plight of non-white men) and open-minded (avoiding a fixation on the race issue by pointing out that other forms of discrimination, like heightism, rarely receive such attention). Meanwhile, HN is supposed to be a much more principled forum. There are a few posts of the sort mentioned above, but they're almost to a one down-voted. The fact that discourse here (where people are putting a screen name on their comments, even) gets anywhere close to the kind seen on 4chan is incredibly distressing. That's reality. In any case, I'm respectfully asking not to hear from you again. I don't think I have anything useful to gain from conversation with you and would like to be free from it going forward. I expect that you'll be reasonable.
  - subjectsigma 3y ago
    This is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever read on orange site. You clearly have zero self awareness and/or are trolling. If you like posting on 4chan, go there. If you read my other comment on the thread, you’ll find that I agreed with your core premise that racial filters for online dating are harmful. There were others too. I suppose you didn’t notice this or something because it wasn’t surrounded by slurs? Or you were too busy writing your pouty comment that got flagged? I don’t have any other explanation for why you think charitable comments on 4chan = good, charitable comments on HN = unacceptable. I’ll comment on whatever I like, if that happens to be what you posted I’ll leave that comment with zero hesitations.

xp84 3y ago

From the article: "Williams urged dating platforms to do more to improve the experience for minority users and protect them when they encounter racism, homophobia, transphobia, and ableism." Is it now transphobia if you go on a date and a person, it turns out, has failed to disclose a key detail about their sex, and as a result you reject them? I'm trying to figure what kind of other situation they might be referring to here. I am all in favor of someone being called to account for seeking out someone (because they're trans) on false pretenses in order to humiliate them or something, but if people are being upfront as they should be, it is unclear to me what transphobia harms they're talking about.

Ajay-p 3y ago
In some places, rejecting that person because they are trans could be considered a hate crime. Just because someone will not date me because I am Southeast Asian, or I won't date them because they are not the gender I prefer, does not make anyone racist or transphobic. It's a personal preference.
- alphabettsy 3y ago
  There is nowhere that would be a hate crime. Absolute hyperbole.
  - Ajay-p 3y ago
    Maybe not a crime, but you've got to pay attention. Scotland is inching that. https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-42652947 https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-42652947
    - xp84 3y ago
      That's wild. Also this[1] one is interesting. Apparently the new hate crime law is being interpreted in a generous way toward the thoughtcrime offenders of Scotland so far (the "stirring up hate" is said to be a 'high bar'), but since it's based on a subjective standard, there's zero reason future governments can't revise their understanding of the law in a way that isn't so liberal. 1. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-68712471 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-68712471

strogonoff 3y ago

I believe it’s perfectly fine to say “I do not like the appearance of X”, “I do not like how the voice of Y sounds”, etc. Very few would argue that we should just command ourselves to like or not like some quality in a person. If, while gaining life experience, we learn to generalize (say, you find you never seem to romantically appreciate people who live in a particular geographic area), then that’s just that; if we are careful that this does not spill over into other areas of life then that’s your prerogative. I imagine this sort of generalization may cause one to miss out on interesting people, but that’s individual’s own business. I shouldn’t feel entitled that you like me; if I suspect you not liking me is a result of that sort of over-optimization on your part, then that’s tragedy but such is life.

hagbard_c 3y ago

[flagged]

trallnag 3y ago

Never used dating apps. Is there a way to filter by weight? Just came to my mind while researching the book's author

TMWNN 3y ago
You can always tell, eh?