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> then even though I wrote the vows myself in Italian, just because I am American we had to have it translated by someone else back into English, by hand, just

> then even though I wrote the vows myself in Italian, just because I am American we had to have it translated by someone else back into English, by hand, just so I understood the vows I had myself written. We then had to contract someone to read the vows out loud in English at the ceremony so I understood my own words. I badly want to learn the historical reason for this insistence that non-Italian-speaking foreigners must understand the contract they're entering into. They wouldn't put up these hoops to jump through unless someone's gotten badly burned in the past, right?

kome 3y ago
In Hungarian courts a contract that you cannot read is invalid, or at least, highly contestable in court. So translations are needed. I guess it must be the same in many other jurisdictions.
- biztos 3y ago
  I can confirm this, when dealing with a Hungarian court I was asked repeatedly whether I understood what was going on and what exactly I was agreeing to. I did, but it was good of them to check.
  - bzzzt 3y ago
    Of course, otherwise you might end up with a hovercraft full of eels ;)
- psychlops 3y ago
  This would support the counterparty requiring a translation, but doesn't explain why the bureaucracy would need it.
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    because the bureaucracy also cares that the contract is valid. There are probably all kinds of tricks you could pull by being married for a bit, then declaring the marriage false all along, but not going through the official divorce process.
    - psychlops 3y ago
      A contract is between parties. The governments role is to arbitrate in the case of disputes not to help craft the original document and ensure understanding.
      - londons_explore 3y ago
        Not in the case of this contract, because it also enables the parties to, for example, become eligible for government incentives to be married.
      - pavel_lishin 3y ago
        Isn't this a case of "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"? Requiring both parties to prove they understand the contract is probably more cost-effective in terms of, well, cost - and time - than it is to actually go on to litigate things.
        psychlops 3y ago
        Perhaps, but it's simply not the way things have been done. For example, I cannot imagine a legal infrastructure that would allow people to understand Terms Of Service. And that is with everyone using their own language.
Swizec 3y ago
> I badly want to learn the historical reason for this insistence that non-Italian-speaking foreigners must understand the contract they're entering into. They wouldn't put up these hoops to jump through unless someone's gotten badly burned in the past, right? Turn the situation around. Rich Italian imports wife from poor country, … easy to imagine how that can lead to all sorts of bad situations. It’s one of the ways human trafficking for prostitution happens.
- gspetr 3y ago
  I don't know if that makes a significant difference for that purpose. It's not like places where weddings take place are conspicuous enough that you couldn't tell the difference between them and a normal govt agency, and it's not like people don't know it is a very bad idea to sign documents where they do not even understand a single word. The paper trail of a vanilla (let alone international) marriage is already big enough that I doubt criminals would want that, unless they have corrupt officials assisting them, which is a problem these measures do not address.
  - Swizec 3y ago
    > it's not like people don't know it is a very bad idea to sign documents where they do not even understand a single word The laws are there for people who may feel like they don’t have much choice in the matter. And yes lying to officials that you did in fact have a choice and are totally doing this of your own free will and yes of course you understand the document you’re signing is a big part of it. This is similar to how some pregnancy related health clinics have things like “Sign the sample cup with blue pen if all good, use the red pen if you’re being forced to be here”
    - pavel_lishin 3y ago
      > This is similar to how some pregnancy related health clinics have things like “Sign the sample cup with blue pen if all good, use the red pen if you’re being forced to be here” Oh, neat, I'd ever heard of that before.
dfxm12 3y ago
Since OP can seemingly already write Italian, cynically, this seems like an effort on Italy's part to keep some foreigners out. Although I can also see how it could have come about with good intentions to protect all parties involved. IANAIL, but by making sure everyone understands a contract right before they sign it, you might save the courts some headache later. It also gives an easy job to a translator.

kome 3y ago

In Hungarian courts a contract that you cannot read is invalid, or at least, highly contestable in court. So translations are needed. I guess it must be the same in many other jurisdictions.

biztos 3y ago
I can confirm this, when dealing with a Hungarian court I was asked repeatedly whether I understood what was going on and what exactly I was agreeing to. I did, but it was good of them to check.
- bzzzt 3y ago
  Of course, otherwise you might end up with a hovercraft full of eels ;)
psychlops 3y ago
This would support the counterparty requiring a translation, but doesn't explain why the bureaucracy would need it.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  because the bureaucracy also cares that the contract is valid. There are probably all kinds of tricks you could pull by being married for a bit, then declaring the marriage false all along, but not going through the official divorce process.
  - psychlops 3y ago
    A contract is between parties. The governments role is to arbitrate in the case of disputes not to help craft the original document and ensure understanding.
    - londons_explore 3y ago
      Not in the case of this contract, because it also enables the parties to, for example, become eligible for government incentives to be married.
    - pavel_lishin 3y ago
      Isn't this a case of "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"? Requiring both parties to prove they understand the contract is probably more cost-effective in terms of, well, cost - and time - than it is to actually go on to litigate things.
      - psychlops 3y ago
        Perhaps, but it's simply not the way things have been done. For example, I cannot imagine a legal infrastructure that would allow people to understand Terms Of Service. And that is with everyone using their own language.

Swizec 3y ago

> I badly want to learn the historical reason for this insistence that non-Italian-speaking foreigners must understand the contract they're entering into. They wouldn't put up these hoops to jump through unless someone's gotten badly burned in the past, right? Turn the situation around. Rich Italian imports wife from poor country, … easy to imagine how that can lead to all sorts of bad situations. It’s one of the ways human trafficking for prostitution happens.

gspetr 3y ago
I don't know if that makes a significant difference for that purpose. It's not like places where weddings take place are conspicuous enough that you couldn't tell the difference between them and a normal govt agency, and it's not like people don't know it is a very bad idea to sign documents where they do not even understand a single word. The paper trail of a vanilla (let alone international) marriage is already big enough that I doubt criminals would want that, unless they have corrupt officials assisting them, which is a problem these measures do not address.
- Swizec 3y ago
  > it's not like people don't know it is a very bad idea to sign documents where they do not even understand a single word The laws are there for people who may feel like they don’t have much choice in the matter. And yes lying to officials that you did in fact have a choice and are totally doing this of your own free will and yes of course you understand the document you’re signing is a big part of it. This is similar to how some pregnancy related health clinics have things like “Sign the sample cup with blue pen if all good, use the red pen if you’re being forced to be here”
  - pavel_lishin 3y ago
    > This is similar to how some pregnancy related health clinics have things like “Sign the sample cup with blue pen if all good, use the red pen if you’re being forced to be here” Oh, neat, I'd ever heard of that before.

dfxm12 3y ago

Since OP can seemingly already write Italian, cynically, this seems like an effort on Italy's part to keep some foreigners out. Although I can also see how it could have come about with good intentions to protect all parties involved. IANAIL, but by making sure everyone understands a contract right before they sign it, you might save the courts some headache later. It also gives an easy job to a translator.