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Personally, I think a lot of the contention stems from the huge number of 4-way stop intersections in the US. Coming to a complete stop and starting again is ro

Personally, I think a lot of the contention stems from the huge number of 4-way stop intersections in the US. Coming to a complete stop and starting again is rough on a car engine, and especially rough on a bike rider, who must lose and rebuild all that momentum with his own strength. Also, a bike rider starting from a complete start will go through the intersection much more slowly than car traffic, causing an obstruction to traffic flow. Other countries use roundabouts, and while that's not necessarily the answer, there might be other remedies. California is famous for the "California Stop", where you come to a near stop and roll forward slowly for a few seconds while you wait your turn, which if done systematically, is an option which seems relatively safe and conserving of momentum. As a rider, I try to time my arrival at an intersection to share the turn of a car going in the same direction and slip through without coming to a stop if I can.

mikeash 14y ago
Oh god, I hate the four-way stop with the power of a thousand suns. They are so common, they work so poorly even when everybody knows what they're doing, and nobody ever knows what they're doing with them. Any time they get the least bit busy they just turn into a total mess. Knowing the rules doesn't help because nobody else follows them. I often fantasize that the US will come to its senses switch to roundabouts.
- antidoh 14y ago
  The problem with roundabouts in the US is that they're often added to intersections that were originally not sized to be large enough to accommodate them properly. They're also more expense to install than four signs. I agree I prefer a roundabout to a four way stop.
  - mikeash 14y ago
    I can see the cost, although I imagine it would be more than made up for by the savings in fuel consumption and vehicle maintenance. As for the size, though, I seem to recall seeing a lot of very small roundabouts in Europe. Do they really need more space? IMO the major problem with roundabouts in the US is simply that American drivers find them frightening and confusing and simply won't put up with them.
- slantyyz 14y ago
  > They are so common, they work so poorly even when everybody knows what they're doing, and nobody ever knows what they're doing with them. 4 way stops are just evil. Where I live, nobody comes to a full stop (even though think they think they do), and because the danger is a little less than a full intersection with a traffic light, people will go out of turn because they think their time is worth more than everyone else's.
  - mikeash 14y ago
    I think it's interesting to analyze these things in terms of how many different things you have to pay attention to. With a roundabout, you need to look to the left (or right, for those in the appropriate countries) for oncoming traffic in the roundabout, and yield to it. You also need to check your entrance's crosswalk for pedestrians, and wait for them. Separately, when you exit, you also have to check that crosswalk for pedestrians, and wait for them. In total, you have to pay attention to two things as you enter, and then separately one thing as you exit. With a four-way stop, you have to check all three other entrances when you arrive. You must also check your crosswalk, of course. You must also simultaneously check your destination crosswalk, since it's simply not reasonable to wait for pedestrians while in the middle of the intersection. You also have to check both other crosswalks, because pedestrians there can influence what the cars there will do. Thus there are a total of seven different things you must all check simultaneously to make it through a four-way stop.

mikeash 14y ago

Oh god, I hate the four-way stop with the power of a thousand suns. They are so common, they work so poorly even when everybody knows what they're doing, and nobody ever knows what they're doing with them. Any time they get the least bit busy they just turn into a total mess. Knowing the rules doesn't help because nobody else follows them. I often fantasize that the US will come to its senses switch to roundabouts.

antidoh 14y ago
The problem with roundabouts in the US is that they're often added to intersections that were originally not sized to be large enough to accommodate them properly. They're also more expense to install than four signs. I agree I prefer a roundabout to a four way stop.
- mikeash 14y ago
  I can see the cost, although I imagine it would be more than made up for by the savings in fuel consumption and vehicle maintenance. As for the size, though, I seem to recall seeing a lot of very small roundabouts in Europe. Do they really need more space? IMO the major problem with roundabouts in the US is simply that American drivers find them frightening and confusing and simply won't put up with them.
slantyyz 14y ago
> They are so common, they work so poorly even when everybody knows what they're doing, and nobody ever knows what they're doing with them. 4 way stops are just evil. Where I live, nobody comes to a full stop (even though think they think they do), and because the danger is a little less than a full intersection with a traffic light, people will go out of turn because they think their time is worth more than everyone else's.
- mikeash 14y ago
  I think it's interesting to analyze these things in terms of how many different things you have to pay attention to. With a roundabout, you need to look to the left (or right, for those in the appropriate countries) for oncoming traffic in the roundabout, and yield to it. You also need to check your entrance's crosswalk for pedestrians, and wait for them. Separately, when you exit, you also have to check that crosswalk for pedestrians, and wait for them. In total, you have to pay attention to two things as you enter, and then separately one thing as you exit. With a four-way stop, you have to check all three other entrances when you arrive. You must also check your crosswalk, of course. You must also simultaneously check your destination crosswalk, since it's simply not reasonable to wait for pedestrians while in the middle of the intersection. You also have to check both other crosswalks, because pedestrians there can influence what the cars there will do. Thus there are a total of seven different things you must all check simultaneously to make it through a four-way stop.