6 ms·

Brazil Supreme Court orders investigation of Elon Musk over fake news

20 points by isaacfrond 3y ago

throwawaysea 3y ago
[dead]
alecsm 3y ago
> "Judge Alexandre de Moraes, speaks during the inauguration of the Center for Combating Disinformation and Defense of Democracy" So, a judge and a Ministry of Truth? I don't know who's right or wrong here but to me it doesn't feel right to have a national entity controlled that decides what I am allowed to say.
- verdverm 3y ago
  America's far reaching free speech, enabling people to knowingly lie to the public, is more of an exception than the standard Being the first constitutional democracy, several mistakes were made (and carve outs to get the deal done)
  - alecsm 3y ago
    I think it's better to allow people to lie in public than let the government decide what's the truth.
    - addicted 3y ago
      This isn’t even true of American free speech. Defamation laws do exist. And you cannot knowingly lie under many circumstances (for example, executives at companies, advertisements, making medical claims, etc).
      - alecsm 3y ago
        If you knowingly lie and get sued then a judge will decide if you're guilty of anything, which is very different than having the government decide beforehand what you can and what you can't say.
        verdverm 3y ago
        Yes, people are talking about expanding what is covered by the law. Right now politicians and media outlets are mostly free to lie without repercussion. Twitter, being a media organization, is knowingly spreading and promoting false information. Elon has on several occasions done this himself and removed community notes correcting him. That later part is more concerning to me. A notable example of late was his retweet of the false info about Arizona voter registration. Fortunately, Maricopa country has a great county recorder who shares the actual data: https://twitter.com/stephen_richer https://twitter.com/stephen_richer Stephen's correction of Elon: https://twitter.com/stephen_richer/status/1775644775829655596 https://twitter.com/stephen_richer/status/177564477582965559...
        matheusmoreira 3y ago
        > which is very different than having the government decide beforehand what you can and what you can't say This is before-the-fact censorship has happened here. Before the 2022 elections, these same judges targeting Elon Musk censored a documentary before it was ever published. Censorship equals dictatorship. It's that simple. Brazil is not a democracy. I want the whole world to know that.
    - verdverm 3y ago
      It will be courts deciding, not a ministry of truth, like what Brazil is doing, which includes discovery, fact-finding, and lawyering from both sides. Another approach I think would be good to roll out is to use Bluesky's stacked moderation for community notes. Open fact checking platform where people can subscribe to those they trust (can be more than one) https://bsky.social/about/blog/03-12-2024-stackable-moderation https://bsky.social/about/blog/03-12-2024-stackable-moderati... --- The problem with allowing knowingly lying is that the damage is done in the first message and rarely is undone with retraction or fact checking. Threat of penalty will reduce how much this happens, and as another commenter pointed out, is in some circumstances Knowing you are lying, and then telling those lies to influence others, ought to be criminal, at least civilly penalized
    - vitorgrs 3y ago
      Can you tell all loud in an airport in the U.S that there is a bomb? Would be a lie. But I'm certain that you can't lie about that in public...
cvjcvjcvj 3y ago
The definition of free speech in Brazil is more modern and better than that in United States. Musk is mistaken, because the accounts of disinformation and violence are of people that place bombs in airports. Freedom of speech should not condone violent actions and it appears he wants to enable such behavior by giving Twitter accounts to those individuals.
- lobocinza 3y ago
  You're free to say everything as long as it doesn't make Mr. Moraes angry. In wich case you're free to go to jail. Modernity!
- andrenth 3y ago
  Brazilian constitution, chapter 5, article 220, paragraph 2: "Any and all censorship of a political, ideological or artistic nature is prohibited." https://normas.leg.br/api/binario/e4a41982-7e50-4627-a65c-0d1b6eea7a69/texto https://normas.leg.br/api/binario/e4a41982-7e50-4627-a65c-0d...
  - andrenth 3y ago
    Brazilian HN users downvoting the Brazilian constitution. Not surprising.
    - matheusmoreira 3y ago
      They downvoted me when I said thank you. You made an extremely informative and well referenced post which detailed the infractions of the judges. I thanked you for it and saved the post. And I got downvoted for it. I'll reiterate the point here by also citing the brazilian constitution: > The expression of thought is free > The expression of intellectual, artistic, scientific and communication activities are free, independently of censure of license > The manifestation of thought, creation, of expression and of information, in any form and by any process or vehicle, shall suffer no restriction > Any and all censorship of political, ideological and artistic nature is prohibited That's what it says. Censorship is illegal. No doubt about it.
andrenth 3y ago
This is an illegal investigation. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39966382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39966382
gverrilla 3y ago
What a loser is Elon Musk, defending terrorists and people willing to bend reality, all because he's in panic with his shitty social network going downhill. Wasn't giving starlink to people killing the Yanomami enough?
- inemesitaffia 3y ago
  Did you complain when it was Viasat or HughesNet? Because they had that before?

20 points by isaacfrond 3y ago

[dead]

> "Judge Alexandre de Moraes, speaks during the inauguration of the Center for Combating Disinformation and Defense of Democracy" So, a judge and a Ministry of Truth? I don't know who's right or wrong here but to me it doesn't feel right to have a national entity controlled that decides what I am allowed to say.

verdverm 3y ago
America's far reaching free speech, enabling people to knowingly lie to the public, is more of an exception than the standard Being the first constitutional democracy, several mistakes were made (and carve outs to get the deal done)
- alecsm 3y ago
  I think it's better to allow people to lie in public than let the government decide what's the truth.
  - addicted 3y ago
    This isn’t even true of American free speech. Defamation laws do exist. And you cannot knowingly lie under many circumstances (for example, executives at companies, advertisements, making medical claims, etc).
    - alecsm 3y ago
      If you knowingly lie and get sued then a judge will decide if you're guilty of anything, which is very different than having the government decide beforehand what you can and what you can't say.
      - verdverm 3y ago
        Yes, people are talking about expanding what is covered by the law. Right now politicians and media outlets are mostly free to lie without repercussion. Twitter, being a media organization, is knowingly spreading and promoting false information. Elon has on several occasions done this himself and removed community notes correcting him. That later part is more concerning to me. A notable example of late was his retweet of the false info about Arizona voter registration. Fortunately, Maricopa country has a great county recorder who shares the actual data: https://twitter.com/stephen_richer https://twitter.com/stephen_richer Stephen's correction of Elon: https://twitter.com/stephen_richer/status/1775644775829655596 https://twitter.com/stephen_richer/status/177564477582965559...
      - matheusmoreira 3y ago
        > which is very different than having the government decide beforehand what you can and what you can't say This is before-the-fact censorship has happened here. Before the 2022 elections, these same judges targeting Elon Musk censored a documentary before it was ever published. Censorship equals dictatorship. It's that simple. Brazil is not a democracy. I want the whole world to know that.
  - verdverm 3y ago
    It will be courts deciding, not a ministry of truth, like what Brazil is doing, which includes discovery, fact-finding, and lawyering from both sides. Another approach I think would be good to roll out is to use Bluesky's stacked moderation for community notes. Open fact checking platform where people can subscribe to those they trust (can be more than one) https://bsky.social/about/blog/03-12-2024-stackable-moderation https://bsky.social/about/blog/03-12-2024-stackable-moderati... --- The problem with allowing knowingly lying is that the damage is done in the first message and rarely is undone with retraction or fact checking. Threat of penalty will reduce how much this happens, and as another commenter pointed out, is in some circumstances Knowing you are lying, and then telling those lies to influence others, ought to be criminal, at least civilly penalized
  - vitorgrs 3y ago
    Can you tell all loud in an airport in the U.S that there is a bomb? Would be a lie. But I'm certain that you can't lie about that in public...

cvjcvjcvj 3y ago

The definition of free speech in Brazil is more modern and better than that in United States. Musk is mistaken, because the accounts of disinformation and violence are of people that place bombs in airports. Freedom of speech should not condone violent actions and it appears he wants to enable such behavior by giving Twitter accounts to those individuals.

lobocinza 3y ago
You're free to say everything as long as it doesn't make Mr. Moraes angry. In wich case you're free to go to jail. Modernity!
andrenth 3y ago
Brazilian constitution, chapter 5, article 220, paragraph 2: "Any and all censorship of a political, ideological or artistic nature is prohibited." https://normas.leg.br/api/binario/e4a41982-7e50-4627-a65c-0d1b6eea7a69/texto https://normas.leg.br/api/binario/e4a41982-7e50-4627-a65c-0d...
- andrenth 3y ago
  Brazilian HN users downvoting the Brazilian constitution. Not surprising.
  - matheusmoreira 3y ago
    They downvoted me when I said thank you. You made an extremely informative and well referenced post which detailed the infractions of the judges. I thanked you for it and saved the post. And I got downvoted for it. I'll reiterate the point here by also citing the brazilian constitution: > The expression of thought is free > The expression of intellectual, artistic, scientific and communication activities are free, independently of censure of license > The manifestation of thought, creation, of expression and of information, in any form and by any process or vehicle, shall suffer no restriction > Any and all censorship of political, ideological and artistic nature is prohibited That's what it says. Censorship is illegal. No doubt about it.

andrenth 3y ago

This is an illegal investigation. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39966382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39966382

gverrilla 3y ago

What a loser is Elon Musk, defending terrorists and people willing to bend reality, all because he's in panic with his shitty social network going downhill. Wasn't giving starlink to people killing the Yanomami enough?

inemesitaffia 3y ago
Did you complain when it was Viasat or HughesNet? Because they had that before?