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> The premise here is that the AI is operating at the behest of someone else. > Now suppose that it's open source and runs on your own device. Not gonna happe

by tivert 3y ago

> The premise here is that the AI is operating at the behest of someone else. > Now suppose that it's open source and runs on your own device. Not gonna happen. The trend is to have less and less control over the devices you own. My TV's OS show me ads, not because I wanted them, but because the manufacturer wants to make more money. There are no open source TVs. As soon as any consumer device gets an internet connection, it starts working against its users (for a recent example, see cars, which are increasingly "connected" and allow the manufactures to sell driving data to 3rd parties for embarrassingly small amounts of money).

AnthonyMouse 3y ago
> The trend is to have less and less control over the devices you own. Markets are two-sided. Stop patronizing companies that abuse you. If you can't find a viable alternative, instead cause problems for them on purpose. Contact support and waste their time hearing your complaints. Buy the device from the retailer where they get the highest margins so you can leave a bad review, then return it and buy a used one instead. Figure out how to root it and publish your work. Don't be afraid to behave adversarially towards your adversary. > There are no open source TVs. There are still dumb TVs that don't connect to the internet. These often cost more, because the adversarial advertising subsidizes the price of the "smart" TVs. But the "smart" TVs still have an HDMI port that you can plug whatever you want into, so the typical move is to buy the smart TV and then use an external device to display video and never connect the TV to the internet. > As soon as any consumer device gets an internet connection, it starts working against its users So don't give it an internet connection, and if it doesn't operate in that condition then return it. Don't be a doormat.
- tivert 3y ago
  >> The trend is to have less and less control over the devices you own. > Markets are two-sided. Stop patronizing companies that abuse you. The market can't fix this. That's a fantasy. The manufactures all have an incentive to do this, and a combination of asymmetric information and users being like frogs in a pot mean they'll suffer little to no blowback. The market converges on devices that turn against their users. > If you can't find a viable alternative, instead cause problems for them on purpose. Contact support and waste their time hearing your complaints. Buy the device from the retailer where they get the highest margins so you can leave a bad review, then return it and buy a used one instead. Those are totally impractical suggestions. The weirdos willing to tilt at windmills over this can have no noticeable effect. > Figure out how to root it and publish your work. Rooting a device takes a lot of work, if it's even possible at all. Volunteers just don't have the combination of skills and dedicated man-hours to make that a practical alternative across the consumer device space, except maybe in some unusual cases.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    > The market can't fix this. That's a fantasy. Competitive markets would fix this immediately. The main problem is that some markets are concentrated enough for suppliers to collude, and people keep telling themselves that there is nothing they can do because they've been conditioned by the sort of arguments you're repeating into being submissive and compliant. > The manufactures all have an incentive to do this And the customers all have an incentive to choose the one that doesn't, putting any manufacturer willing to respect the customer at a competitive advantage. Unless you convince customers that they can't actually do this and should just learn to love the boot stomping on their face and buy from the companies defecting against them. > Those are totally impractical suggestions. The weirdos willing to tilt at windmills over this can have no noticeable effect. That depends entirely on how many of them there are. How many will there be if people are propagandized into believing it can't be effective, vs. creating a culture in which refusal to countenance bullshit is a moral imperative? It's okay to be the only person doing the right thing. Somebody has to be first. Don't make fun of them, don't tell them it's futile, join them and convince others to do so. > Rooting a device takes a lot of work, if it's even possible at all. Volunteers just don't have the combination of skills and dedicated man-hours to make that a practical alternative across the consumer device space, except maybe in some unusual cases. You only need one person to succeed. It's a fun and socially beneficial hobby, and has been successful across a range of consumer devices in the past.
    - autoexec 3y ago
      > Competitive markets would fix this immediately...And the customers all have an incentive to choose the one that doesn't, putting any manufacturer willing to respect the customer at a competitive advantage. No company wants that "advantage" because that would make them less money and give them much less power. If you sell a product and people are willing to pay X for it then you can make X (minus your costs), but if you can also collect and sell your customer's data you will make even more money on top of what you would have otherwise. Nobody is going to leave all of that money on the table. Exploiting your customers also gives you power over them. You can remotely disable features your customers already paid for and force them to pay you over and over and over again to get them back. You can ensure that your product is only used in ways you approve of. You can change/censor your product at any time after it's sold. You can force customers to keep paying for the rest of their lives for a product they used to be able to get with a single payment of a set amount. No company is going to give up all the extra money and power to "outcompete" their rivals. You can see that for yourself. Where are all the companies giving consumers what we want? If there's really an endless fortune to be made selling smart TVs that don't push ads or spy on users why aren't you personally working on doing just that already? It's guaranteed to make you rich beyond your wildest dreams when you drive every other TV company on Earth out of business right? Why hasn't someone done that already? Sometimes it will always be more profitable and advantageous for companies to refuse to give consumers what they want. I hope you're right someone does decide to make a massive fortune selling high quality smart TVs that don't exploit the customer, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for one.

by tivert 3y ago

AnthonyMouse 3y ago

> The trend is to have less and less control over the devices you own. Markets are two-sided. Stop patronizing companies that abuse you. If you can't find a viable alternative, instead cause problems for them on purpose. Contact support and waste their time hearing your complaints. Buy the device from the retailer where they get the highest margins so you can leave a bad review, then return it and buy a used one instead. Figure out how to root it and publish your work. Don't be afraid to behave adversarially towards your adversary. > There are no open source TVs. There are still dumb TVs that don't connect to the internet. These often cost more, because the adversarial advertising subsidizes the price of the "smart" TVs. But the "smart" TVs still have an HDMI port that you can plug whatever you want into, so the typical move is to buy the smart TV and then use an external device to display video and never connect the TV to the internet. > As soon as any consumer device gets an internet connection, it starts working against its users So don't give it an internet connection, and if it doesn't operate in that condition then return it. Don't be a doormat.

tivert 3y ago
>> The trend is to have less and less control over the devices you own. > Markets are two-sided. Stop patronizing companies that abuse you. The market can't fix this. That's a fantasy. The manufactures all have an incentive to do this, and a combination of asymmetric information and users being like frogs in a pot mean they'll suffer little to no blowback. The market converges on devices that turn against their users. > If you can't find a viable alternative, instead cause problems for them on purpose. Contact support and waste their time hearing your complaints. Buy the device from the retailer where they get the highest margins so you can leave a bad review, then return it and buy a used one instead. Those are totally impractical suggestions. The weirdos willing to tilt at windmills over this can have no noticeable effect. > Figure out how to root it and publish your work. Rooting a device takes a lot of work, if it's even possible at all. Volunteers just don't have the combination of skills and dedicated man-hours to make that a practical alternative across the consumer device space, except maybe in some unusual cases.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  > The market can't fix this. That's a fantasy. Competitive markets would fix this immediately. The main problem is that some markets are concentrated enough for suppliers to collude, and people keep telling themselves that there is nothing they can do because they've been conditioned by the sort of arguments you're repeating into being submissive and compliant. > The manufactures all have an incentive to do this And the customers all have an incentive to choose the one that doesn't, putting any manufacturer willing to respect the customer at a competitive advantage. Unless you convince customers that they can't actually do this and should just learn to love the boot stomping on their face and buy from the companies defecting against them. > Those are totally impractical suggestions. The weirdos willing to tilt at windmills over this can have no noticeable effect. That depends entirely on how many of them there are. How many will there be if people are propagandized into believing it can't be effective, vs. creating a culture in which refusal to countenance bullshit is a moral imperative? It's okay to be the only person doing the right thing. Somebody has to be first. Don't make fun of them, don't tell them it's futile, join them and convince others to do so. > Rooting a device takes a lot of work, if it's even possible at all. Volunteers just don't have the combination of skills and dedicated man-hours to make that a practical alternative across the consumer device space, except maybe in some unusual cases. You only need one person to succeed. It's a fun and socially beneficial hobby, and has been successful across a range of consumer devices in the past.
  - autoexec 3y ago
    > Competitive markets would fix this immediately...And the customers all have an incentive to choose the one that doesn't, putting any manufacturer willing to respect the customer at a competitive advantage. No company wants that "advantage" because that would make them less money and give them much less power. If you sell a product and people are willing to pay X for it then you can make X (minus your costs), but if you can also collect and sell your customer's data you will make even more money on top of what you would have otherwise. Nobody is going to leave all of that money on the table. Exploiting your customers also gives you power over them. You can remotely disable features your customers already paid for and force them to pay you over and over and over again to get them back. You can ensure that your product is only used in ways you approve of. You can change/censor your product at any time after it's sold. You can force customers to keep paying for the rest of their lives for a product they used to be able to get with a single payment of a set amount. No company is going to give up all the extra money and power to "outcompete" their rivals. You can see that for yourself. Where are all the companies giving consumers what we want? If there's really an endless fortune to be made selling smart TVs that don't push ads or spy on users why aren't you personally working on doing just that already? It's guaranteed to make you rich beyond your wildest dreams when you drive every other TV company on Earth out of business right? Why hasn't someone done that already? Sometimes it will always be more profitable and advantageous for companies to refuse to give consumers what they want. I hope you're right someone does decide to make a massive fortune selling high quality smart TVs that don't exploit the customer, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for one.