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> Elsewhere in Germany, bureaucracy tends to be tedious but functional. Data to back up your assertion that it’s only Berlin? I can speak for Düsseldorf, which

> Elsewhere in Germany, bureaucracy tends to be tedious but functional. Data to back up your assertion that it’s only Berlin? I can speak for Düsseldorf, which is a total nightmare. Literally everything folks talk about regarding issues in Berlin also happens as a matter of course in Düsseldorf. A friend of mine is high up in the NRW civil servants apparatus and he confirms it’s fucked across the board in NRW.

elbear 2y ago
Do you know the causes for why there's so much bureaucracy? I wonder what the potential solutions are.
- microtonal 2y ago
  The bureaucracy problem is compounded by not wanting to link databases between government organizations and a general resistance to anything digital that involves personal data (except Facebook et al. for some reason), which reduces efficiency a lot. However, this is understandable given German history.
  - lifestyleguru 2y ago
    Schufa, Rundfunkbeitrag, and copyright trolls have no problem cross linking personal data between government databases in Germany. > However, this is understandable given German history. So tired of this apologetics, modern German bureaucracy has been built exactly by former Nazis and Stasi agents.
    - mk89 2y ago
      > So tired of this apologetics, modern German bureaucracy has been built exactly by former Nazis and Stasi agents. I would argue that they are the best then to design something private :)
      - lifestyleguru 2y ago
        Yes after eliminating or mauling those they don't consider worthy living ;) lol hahaha. Seriously though if you're allowed to corner part of the population and brutally vent on them, next you'll need "privacy" to avoid consequences and revenge.
    - microtonal 2y ago
      So tired of this apologetics, Sorry, I didn't mean it as an apology, it's more that I understand the historical context (at least that's what several Germans have told me). I strongly prefer the system where I live, where I can pretty much arrange everything government-related from behind a keyboard and a universal authenticator (DigiD).
    - Tainnor 2y ago
      > So tired of this apologetics, modern German bureaucracy has been built exactly by former Nazis and Stasi agents. The modern US was founded by slave owners, Spain was a dictatorship for longer than most of Germany, Poland was sliding into illiberal democracy until very recently, most of Latin America seems one recession away from a coup or revolution, ... there is a lot of continuity between liberal democracies and authoritarian governments. The roots of German bureaucracy also go much further back than the Nazi era (at least to Prussia). I'm not really sure what using loaded language like this accomplished, though.
      - lifestyleguru 2y ago
        Post WWII era was the most impactful for the current state of affairs. The recent situation in Poland was nowhere close in terms of graveness in comparison with the other examples, no slavery of genocide was even marginally likely, not even hyperinflation.
        Tainnor 2y ago
        I still have no idea what you're trying to say beyond vague insinuations.
    - hollerith 2y ago
      >modern German bureaucracy has been built exactly by former Nazis and Stasi agents. How frustrating for London and Washington to fight and win a war against the Nazis, then occupy (the Western half of) Germany for 7 years, imposing a new government on the country -- all to no effect.
      - Tainnor 2y ago
        De-Nazification effectively stopped once the US realised that Germany would be more useful as an ally against the Soviet Union, so in the first years of the new state you had former Nazis in important positions. It really was the next generation of Germans who, in the 60s, demanded more thorough denazification.
nicbou 2y ago
I only cover Berlin, but the relocation consultants I frequently talk to will confirm that it's even worse in other medium to large cities. The Berlin immigration office is doing well given the hand it has been dealt.
- Semaphor 2y ago
  The immigration office in Lübeck, STB inner city, is overworked like everywhere, but they are competent, friendly, and decently digitalized. From what a US friend of mine who lived in many cities in Germany told me, it’s pretty much an exception, though.
Tainnor 2y ago
Like everyone else here, I don't have any data (I searched, but couldn't find anything), only anecdotes - my own experiences from living in Cologne and Berlin, and those of friends who live in Hamburg, Frankfurt, Munich, etc. There are issues everywhere but Berlin is particularly bad. We weren't even able to hold a regular election without messing it up.
asyx 2y ago
What do you dislike about the city stuff? I think all bureaucracy I had to deal with with the city of Düsseldorf have been better than the state or federal agencies. Kita Navigator, Straßenverkehrsamt, appointments for the Bürgerbüro were all working pretty well online. Not all the way, of course, but post COVID Straßenverkehsamt is a million times better than pre COVID Straßenverkehsamt.

elbear 2y ago

Do you know the causes for why there's so much bureaucracy? I wonder what the potential solutions are.

microtonal 2y ago
The bureaucracy problem is compounded by not wanting to link databases between government organizations and a general resistance to anything digital that involves personal data (except Facebook et al. for some reason), which reduces efficiency a lot. However, this is understandable given German history.
- lifestyleguru 2y ago
  Schufa, Rundfunkbeitrag, and copyright trolls have no problem cross linking personal data between government databases in Germany. > However, this is understandable given German history. So tired of this apologetics, modern German bureaucracy has been built exactly by former Nazis and Stasi agents.
  - mk89 2y ago
    > So tired of this apologetics, modern German bureaucracy has been built exactly by former Nazis and Stasi agents. I would argue that they are the best then to design something private :)
    - lifestyleguru 2y ago
      Yes after eliminating or mauling those they don't consider worthy living ;) lol hahaha. Seriously though if you're allowed to corner part of the population and brutally vent on them, next you'll need "privacy" to avoid consequences and revenge.
  - microtonal 2y ago
    So tired of this apologetics, Sorry, I didn't mean it as an apology, it's more that I understand the historical context (at least that's what several Germans have told me). I strongly prefer the system where I live, where I can pretty much arrange everything government-related from behind a keyboard and a universal authenticator (DigiD).
  - Tainnor 2y ago
    > So tired of this apologetics, modern German bureaucracy has been built exactly by former Nazis and Stasi agents. The modern US was founded by slave owners, Spain was a dictatorship for longer than most of Germany, Poland was sliding into illiberal democracy until very recently, most of Latin America seems one recession away from a coup or revolution, ... there is a lot of continuity between liberal democracies and authoritarian governments. The roots of German bureaucracy also go much further back than the Nazi era (at least to Prussia). I'm not really sure what using loaded language like this accomplished, though.
    - lifestyleguru 2y ago
      Post WWII era was the most impactful for the current state of affairs. The recent situation in Poland was nowhere close in terms of graveness in comparison with the other examples, no slavery of genocide was even marginally likely, not even hyperinflation.
      - Tainnor 2y ago
        I still have no idea what you're trying to say beyond vague insinuations.
  - hollerith 2y ago
    >modern German bureaucracy has been built exactly by former Nazis and Stasi agents. How frustrating for London and Washington to fight and win a war against the Nazis, then occupy (the Western half of) Germany for 7 years, imposing a new government on the country -- all to no effect.
    - Tainnor 2y ago
      De-Nazification effectively stopped once the US realised that Germany would be more useful as an ally against the Soviet Union, so in the first years of the new state you had former Nazis in important positions. It really was the next generation of Germans who, in the 60s, demanded more thorough denazification.

nicbou 2y ago

I only cover Berlin, but the relocation consultants I frequently talk to will confirm that it's even worse in other medium to large cities. The Berlin immigration office is doing well given the hand it has been dealt.

Semaphor 2y ago
The immigration office in Lübeck, STB inner city, is overworked like everywhere, but they are competent, friendly, and decently digitalized. From what a US friend of mine who lived in many cities in Germany told me, it’s pretty much an exception, though.

Tainnor 2y ago

Like everyone else here, I don't have any data (I searched, but couldn't find anything), only anecdotes - my own experiences from living in Cologne and Berlin, and those of friends who live in Hamburg, Frankfurt, Munich, etc. There are issues everywhere but Berlin is particularly bad. We weren't even able to hold a regular election without messing it up.

asyx 2y ago

What do you dislike about the city stuff? I think all bureaucracy I had to deal with with the city of Düsseldorf have been better than the state or federal agencies. Kita Navigator, Straßenverkehrsamt, appointments for the Bürgerbüro were all working pretty well online. Not all the way, of course, but post COVID Straßenverkehsamt is a million times better than pre COVID Straßenverkehsamt.