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How to Not Kill a Cyclist

66 points by xbryanx 14y ago

cpt1138 14y ago
Preaching to the choir. The chances of a driver reading this and actually doing anything are nil.
- antidoh 14y ago
  Maybe. I'm a driver. I read it. I learned.
  - kabdib 14y ago
    This is incredibly off-topic for HN. However, I will add one more piece of advice for drivers: Take a motorcycle safety course. You don't /have/ to ride, of course, but it will probably be a lot of fun and it will teach you a LOT about your level of awareness on the road. (For instance: The MSF courses teach you to look ahead about twelve seconds. I'm guessing that most drivers only have a couple seconds of planning, if that. Similarly, always having contingencies -- "where do I go if that truck changes lanes?" -- and noticing little things -- "that rear-view mirror is canted, so that driver isn't even bothering to look.") Okay, back to r/HN :-)
    - antidoh 14y ago
      "This is incredibly off-topic for HN." You're almost completely correct, except for the "interesting to hackers" caveat in the guidelines. Even with the caveat, this is probably still off-topic. Except that a lot of readers probably ride. But still it's probably off-topic. Except ... I've noticed a lot of weekend posts that are both off-topic and interesting, and I tend to see weekends on HN as a brief relaxing of the rules. Which I like.
      - hughw 14y ago
        It was Bike to Work day, so it's topical.
    - rdl 14y ago
      The MSF course is something I would strongly recommend for anyone able to take it, rider or not. All of the people I'd consider good drivers have taken one (or are 20k+ mile motorcyclists), even when driving cars.
    - slantyyz 14y ago
      Might be useful, but I do notice (possibly selectively) that a lot of the motorcyclists where I live are dangerous riders. The young riders who seem to favor the racing bikes in my area (Greater Toronto Area, Canada) seem to be quite dangerous in their habits, whereas the older ones who ride Harleys and the like are much less aggressive on our roadways.
antidoh 14y ago
“Bicycle riders on public roads have the same rights and responsibilities as motorists, and are subject to the same rules and regulations.” Imagine a car, coming to a red light in the right lane. It then turns right on red, but rather than driving on in the new road, it makes a sudden u-turn, coming back to the intersection. Then makes a right on green, and continues on in the original direction. If you're a rider, discourage your colleagues from this practice. It's a violation of the responsibilities listed in the quote above, but worse, it promotes contempt for cyclists among us drivers. It's easier to promote cross-community cooperation when you're not cherry picking your responsibilities.
- mikeash 14y ago
  Each side wants all of the rights and none of the responsibilities, which should be no surprise. Cyclists like to ignore traffic signals when they're inconvenient. Cars like to pass bicyclists unsafely when staying behind them is inconvenient. Both sides abhor signaling. I think what we really need is less group labeling. When a car driver fails to signal, we don't generally think, "Man, car drivers are so inconsiderate." (Well, I often do. But I think that's unusual.) Yet when a bicyclist does something against the rules, suddenly this is taken as representative of everyone on two wheels.
  - WiseWeasel 14y ago
    Personally, I think a lot of the contention stems from the huge number of 4-way stop intersections in the US. Coming to a complete stop and starting again is rough on a car engine, and especially rough on a bike rider, who must lose and rebuild all that momentum with his own strength. Also, a bike rider starting from a complete start will go through the intersection much more slowly than car traffic, causing an obstruction to traffic flow. Other countries use roundabouts, and while that's not necessarily the answer, there might be other remedies. California is famous for the "California Stop", where you come to a near stop and roll forward slowly for a few seconds while you wait your turn, which if done systematically, is an option which seems relatively safe and conserving of momentum. As a rider, I try to time my arrival at an intersection to share the turn of a car going in the same direction and slip through without coming to a stop if I can.
viraptor 14y ago
And yet there are strange projects going on like allowing bicycles to run red lights: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3311182.ece http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3311... Apparently the change was discussed in UK too for some test periods and I'm really afraid of it. The greatest danger in my mind is not that the collision may happen. The worst part is that if I collide with another car at 10mph, the worst that can happen is that both cars will need some new paint, even if I don't hit the break. At the same speed, it's possible I'm going to kill a cyclist - pretty much actually run over him before I start breaking if he suddenly appears in front of me.
zaccus 14y ago
In Chicago I've almost never seen a cyclist stop at a red light or stop sign. Cyclists here feel free to ride on the wrong side of the road, weave in and out of traffic, and cut off drivers. I'm no lawyer, but I fear that if I hit one of these clowns then I'll be completely at-fault. It sucks. Worst of all, I've never, ever seen a cyclist get pulled over. If cyclists were held to the same responsibilities as drivers, that would be one thing. But they're not, hence the resentment.
- dasil003 14y ago
  > In Chicago I've almost never seen a cyclist stop at a red light or stop sign. Then you're not paying enough attention to cyclists. Stop and take a deep breath before you kill someone.
  - nachteilig 14y ago
    That's really unnecessary. In fact, cyclists here rarely if ever stop at stop signs. It's a very dangerous situation.
- to3m 14y ago
  Well, I don't know if you've noticed, but cyclists ride bikes, whereas car drivers drive cars. Car drivers should be prepared to take a bit more responsibility for their actions, given the amount of damage they can cause. Anyway, is it seriously that big a deal? Avoid them, like you'd avoid a dog, or a toddler, or a man in a BMW, or some other agent that doesn't seem to comprehend the rules of the road, and then ignore the matter.
  - slantyyz 14y ago
    Where I live, a pedestrian was killed by a cyclist. http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1048256--cyclists-defend-using-sidewalk-where-pedestrian-was-struck-and-killed http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1048256--cyclists-defend...
    - hughw 14y ago
zobzu 14y ago
I've been riding bikes to work every day in a few parts of Europe for about 10 years, including big cities traffic, suburbs and rural areas. I've been doing the same in San Francisco for some month recently. In Europe, everyone treat the bike as a vehicule, no question asked. Everyone knows the hand sign. People get doored, and the like but it's rare. You gotta be more careful in heavy traffic, but basically, when riding, it feels safe in most areas. Cars will wait behind you when they can't pass super-safely-with-5-meter-distance-from-your-side almost every time. Nearly everyone of them used a bike and knows how it is, at least, that's the feeling. Now, fast forward to SF. I was surprised, to say the least. If there is no bike lane, something like 90% of the cars simply do not give a single shit about bikes. That is, if you're on the rightmost part of the road, they will pass, no matter what (you can choose here: get even more right and risk being doored, the risk is rather high here. slow down to a near halt and go right [that's what I do]. go straight and hear the honk + generally get hit by the rear view mirror.) Knowing that you can avoid streets without a bike lane, and when forced, take the full lane (you'll hear the honk but you'll live). Here's one that happened to me recently: some streets in SF have a tram lane and a car lane. No bike lane. car pushed me on the tram lane thinking 'thats where cyclists go'. Tram was coming behind of course. Got to feel the friction of both car and tram. No injuries. Unfortunately I don't have a good alternative route. Here's another thing that happens everyday: Car park in the bike lane, so you gotta pass it. Look behind you, car is coming, so you slow down, and let them pass (they will never let you pass). If there is a continuous flow of cars, and it happens, none will let you pass. Most cyclists just pass and assume the driver will slow down (and get angry but hey, you gotta pass some day). Personally, I just wait as long as it takes or walk it on the side walk if its more than a minute. Pedestrians are no better. They don't cross at red if cars are coming. But they do for bikes. Why the hell? I understand crossing at red when it's safe, don't get me wrong, but don't cross in front of bikes that's extremely dumb. Cyclists are no better either. 50% (?) ignore the signs and traffic entirely. That being said I noticed that in some parts of the city this is actually safer to cross at the red light while cars are waiting, than waiting with the cars (in line or slightly in front, although I always go slightly i front to be sure they see me). Sad but true. If you start with the cars, they wont let you start first and thus you may get hit if the bike lane is not wide enough or simply not there. Even if there is a bike lane, its gone when there's a crossing and drivers naturally push you on the right side for some reason. I still stop at all traffic lights but this is disturbing me a lot lately. Whats the point of respecting the red light in all situations in the US, being killed? and I bet that's why so many ignore them. Finally, after a few month I personally got "right turned", and broke some bones, hence my super-safe behavior assuming the driver is going to be doing the wrong thing in every situation. Before I would expect that some situations were safe, such as the right turn if you're in front of the cars. But no. They just turn into you even thus they've seen you, because, you're a bike, you'll probably brake in time, plus you should be on the sidewalk, etc. So yeah, I never cross a street without slowing down a lot if a car is less than 10 meters behind me (and obviously if its next to me or slightly ahead, even thus I'm on a bike lane, although they're supposed to switch lane) As a last anecdotal story of this very long post, I was also surprised by rainy days. About, let's say, 15% of the cars take the opportunity to splash you when they can. Seriously. My last rainy day in SF, that happened 3 times over my 20min ride back home. The last one the guy stopped and laughed. I was 100% soaked. It means to me that a high enough number of drivers absolutely hate cyclists with passion. WTF is wrong with people?
the_mat 14y ago
A good article, thanks for writing it. I'm not convinced that a majority of cyclists understand that they have to follow the same rules as motorized vehicles. It's unusual to see the driver of a car blast through a stop sign without slowing down at all. It happens, but not that often. On the other hand, it's unusual for me to see a cyclist who doesn't run stop signs. I can see why: because you're going slower and have a full view around you. But that's still not an excuse if you're going to play the "cars and bikes are both vehicles" card.
- mattstreet 14y ago
  There are different laws for bikes, it isn't just bike == vehicle. Example: http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadrights/2009/07/28/a-stop-sign-solution/ http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadrights/2009/07/28/a-stop-sign...
ronnier 14y ago
To the cyclists among us, how do you overcome the fear of riding in the middle of heavy trafficked roads during rush hour? This is very common in the Seattle area and almost as common in Dallas.
- awolf 14y ago
  For me, the realization that it is actually SAFER to claim the lane rather than be meek and risk getting doored or risk being in a position where cars assume they should pass you. Better to piss people off than risk your life. Plus, in most of those heavily trafficked roads the cars that are getting pissed off are delusional and don't realize that you're basically moving at the same speed as traffic anyway.
- Moto7451 14y ago
  At least in LA around the parts that I commute, when rush hour hits cars are traveling at walking speeds or completely stopped except for short bursts so I'm traveling between three and five times faster than they are if I'm lane sharing (Lane sharing is legal for cycles in CA). If I take the lane I'm in the clear during rush hour as well. The thing to remember is that a cyclist on a road bike is generally able to accelerate faster 0-5 or 0-10 than most vehicles from a stop so clearing an intersection with the cars isn't hard. Cars obviously leave cyclists behind past 5-10MPH because they've overcome their inertia. Usually the only guys clearing an intersection before me on a start are guys on sport bikes and I can lane share with them (though we'd look silly for not just bypassing the traffic). When you're the faster vehicle its rather reassuring since you can more or less get the same respect as everyone in a car after a couple blocks. If the traffic is moving at a good speed for a bike, you can usually you can just blend into a lane and no one will honk or look at you funny... after all, the cars holding the cyclist up and I think everyone is happier when we're not lane sharing.
- WiseWeasel 14y ago
  Find bike routes or low-traffic streets and stick to those.
- zobzu 14y ago
  Personally, I don't. I always think about it. I watch my back at every single crossing. Every one of them, zero exception. I slow down when it goes down hill. I slow down when cars are next to me. I don't care if some bikes pass me full speed like "hey look how fast i go". I don't go slow either, but I'm not "full speed". Bikes brake very poorly, specially road bikes. (Mountain bikes brake a lot better, btw. Much larger tire.) Also important, if there are cars parked in busy areas I go on the far left of the bike lane (there's no way you can anticipate being door'd). Saves me about twice a week. I go back on the far right whenever there's no cars parked. And when there's no bike lane and cars go by relatively fast, I just claim the lane (of course you need to go nearly as fast as cars for that, else you're going to piss off a lot of people and create traffic issues).
swdunlop 14y ago
"If, for instance, you are behind a cyclist and approaching a stop, passing the cyclist likely will gain you nothing. In fact, you may end up passing the cyclist twice: once before the intersection, a second time after. Which, let’s face it, is going to annoy you." Speaking as a cyclist, I hope not -- that means the cyclist has advanced past a car in front of him in the lane, which is a stupid thing to do. Either own the lane and be a vehicle, or get off the bike and on the sidewalk.
- zobzu 14y ago
  Actually that doesn't work that way. In many states sharing the lane is legitimate, and biking no the sidewalk as well. But that means, you're fine with all bikes claiming the complete lane right? That means you can't pass them at the stop, and you can't pass them as long as the left lane is not 100% free (just like passing a car). When I do claim the lane when I bike (it happens that I need to, if there's no bike lane and it's a dangerous part of the road), I don't pass cars at the stop. But again, most of the time, I don't, and can't, claim the lane. This means I'd rather be in front of the cars at the stop (= they see me) than next to the cars 3 cars behind the stop (= whoever turn right, won't see me, and since they rarely use the signalization lights, or perform another stop before turning right, it means its horribly dangerous)
- scott_w 14y ago
  In the UK, many traffic lights have a space for cyclists at the front and centre, so cyclists can skip to the front and maneuver the junction more safely. This leads to many cases where a driver will have to pass a cyclist twice.
awolf 14y ago
A regional note for San Francisco: the bikers here aren't helping things. We seem to have a disproportionate number of asshole bikers who seem to think they are entitled to fly through stop-signs as 10/15 mph. As a person who both bikes and drives a lot in the city I see both sides of this coin. I understand that coming to a full stop is an expensive operation for cyclists... but approaching a 4 way stop with cars already at the intersection and then suddenly deciding that you're a magical cyclist that doesn't need to obey traffic laws is both dangerous and pisses of motorists which only increase tension for all people involved.
- vbtemp 14y ago
  Amen to that!
- garyrichardson 14y ago
  I believe this is universal -- it also happens in Vancouver, BC. Cyclists complain about motorists, motorists complain about cyclists. A certain percentage of each group are jerks who don't play nicely.
tomjakubowski 14y ago
I was taught to always open the driver's-side door (left-hand drive) with my RIGHT hand, which forces you to turn your body (and head) to look for potential dooring victims.
- aidos 14y ago
  Good idea, like it. If everyone was taught that I could have been saved a fair amount of pain in the past.
SteveC 14y ago
In Japan, where many people cycle, they ride on the footpath. It seems to work out fine.
- fivethirty 14y ago
  The trade off being that it takes twice as long to get anywhere because you can't go very fast. At least that was my experience commuting on a bike in Japan.
- cmod 14y ago
  Pedestrians also become hyper aware and responsive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_MphtzCOEc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_MphtzCOEc
grannyg00se 14y ago
"If there is no bike lane, something like 90% of the cars simply do not give a single shit about bikes." You have to respect the culture in which you are immersed. It seems insane to me that cyclists would even consider riding on a road that has no bike lane. Right or wrong, the existence of bike lanes sets up a dichotomy in people's minds. Either there is a bike lane and bikes belong there (and I have to be aware of them), or there is no bike lane and bikes do not belong (I won't be expecting them - I may even resent their presence). Pedestrians have their place, and cars have their place. Bikes have their place, but unfortunately only on a few select roadways.
- fivethirty 14y ago
  Except that, as is mentioned in the OP, in the US cyclists are legally allowed use most all roadways and are treated legally like an automobile in cases where a bike lane does not exist.
  - grannyg00se 14y ago
    That may be the case, legally. But as the OP indicates, that is not always the case, culturally. But if bicycles are treated like motor vehicles, why is it that you often find them creating a lane where there is none? You don't often see motorcycles riding alongside cars, in the same lane, grazing parked vehicles.
    - fivethirty 14y ago
      But if bicycles are treated like motor vehicles, why is it that you often find them creating a lane where there is none? You don't often see motorcycles riding alongside cars, in the same lane, grazing parked vehicles. I'm not 100% sure what you're describing, but it sounds like you are talking about a situation where a cyclist is riding on the far right side of the lane next to the parked cars and is being passed in the same lane by other cars. What sounds dangerous to me about this situation is not that the cyclist is creating his own lane (because he's not, he's in the proper right most lane), but rather that cars are trying to pass him (a vehicle that is legally allowed to be there) without leaving enough room. Also, kind of off topic, but where I'm from (California), motorcycles are legally allowed to weave between lanes and do it all the time. Not that I think this is a particularly smart think to do :)
revelation 14y ago
Can we shortcut through the usual discussions? As a cyclist, I'm hyper aware of the fact that I'm not a 4 ton steel SUV. If you see me do something dangerous, comfort your rage with the simple fact that it will likely kill or severely injure me if it comes to that. If you see me break the law, know that per law I'll be fined like a normal vehicle, even though these are based off the danger radiating from a SUV going 40mph.
- furyofantares 14y ago
  > If you see me do something dangerous, comfort your rage with the simple fact that it will likely kill or severely injure me if it comes to that. Why would that comfort anyone? It's distressing to watch someone do something dangerous specifically because of the fear that they may injur or kill themselves.
- wccrawford 14y ago
  As a cyclist and a motorist, that's bullshit. As a cyclist, you're making motorists angry, and that makes it less safe for me. As a motorist, there's a chance you'll pull some stupid shit and I'll be the one that hits you. And then I have to live the rest of my life with your death on my conscience, even though it wasn't really my fault. Stop doing dangerous shit on the roads.
vbtemp 14y ago
I want to co-exist with bikers, I really do. I wish our cities on the east coast would be more bike friendly. But bikers need to make up their minds. Who are they, vehicles or pedestrians? Each comes with it's own rights and obligations. I see bikers all the time blow through red lights, stop signs, and pedestrian crosswalks. When I'm a driver I always need to slam on the breaks to avoid hitting them as such intersections when I have the right-of-way or a green light. And in dense cities a biker can cause a tremendous backup, with gridlock followng him as he makes his way through the city. Likewise, when I'm a pedestrian, I constantly need to watch not for cars, but for high speed bikers blowing perpendicularly through pedestrian crosswalks when the pedestrians have the crossing light. Why do they get to blow through pedestrian crosswalks and red lights and stop signs? EDIT: And bikers who listen to their iPod and wear headphones while blowing through red lights - F you!
- gte910h 14y ago
  I drive a Prius. I have been hit by cyclists t-boning me 3 times because they follow the "listen, don't look" school of cycling. (I have never hit one)
  - eaurouge 14y ago
    Oh my! A Prius driver complaining about other road users :-) I have a problem with Prius drivers, they always seem more interested in improving their gas mileage personal best than driving a reasonable speed on the freeway.
    - gte910h 14y ago
      Not me, I drive it like any other car. I turn off the crash screen while driving.
  - zobzu 14y ago
    How did that exactly happen? I understand the car is quiet, but I'm wondering how the situation was. Most of the time cars pass and brake (bike can't brake nearly as good as a car).
fotbr 14y ago
Invalid assertion. I didn't notice more cyclists on my commute, and it is absolutely not a cause for concern - there were none. That's right. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. The entire list of vehicles encountered during my commute on the 18th was: the same guy I often see around town on his goldwing, a maroon 70s or very early 80s firebird or camaro, three pickups, a dump truck, the county sheriff in his personal car (he lives a few houses down from me), and a rather large John Deere tractor being moved from one field to another on the other side of the railroad tracks. Oh, and a train, on those tracks, carrying, amongst other things, 737 bodies on their way to final assembly. And while it's not a vehicle - one skunk, freshly killed. My commute is 12 miles (one direction) of 2 lane roads across farmland. It's flat, boring, and the roads are in pretty poor condition with no shoulders. The cyclists in this area stick to other routes for their long-distance rides, where the pavement is in much better shape, and they have a shoulder that they can use if they have to dodge an idiot, instead of finding an overgrown ditch and a barbed-wire fence.
- Moto7451 14y ago
  Common reason is comfort but I think the loud colors are purely for show. Just like having a flashy car. They make cycling kits that look like every day wear, especially for mountain biking where having a bit if extra material is extremely helpful when you run out of talent and crash ;). Personally, I just wear cargo shorts with gussets and a brightly colored exercise shirt (like the kind worn for running). Visibility and comfort without looking like a billboard.
WalterBright 14y ago
I live in Seattle, and there are a lot of cyclists. I don't bike any more because it's too dangerous. But I have a question for the cyclists: What's with wearing the tour de france outfit? 9/10 cyclists are wearing racing outfits covered with logos. They aren't racing, they're just biking to work or biking because it's a nice day out. 1/10 is wearing shorts and a t-shirt, what I wore when biking.
cletus 14y ago
Cars aren't just rough on cyclists. Being a pedestrian is dangerous enough. In NYC it's not so bad since there are so many pedestrians that drivers are somewhat used to it (and are often pedestrians themselves). But even here you have to watch out: - In NYC it is illegal to turn right at a red light. Seriously, I wish people would learn this. Actually I wish cops would enforce this; - As a whole you can't trust cars to indicate in the US in my experience. Not indicating and turning is common enough but you sometimes see indicating and not turning. I guess people change their mind; - Running red lights, particularly at night, seems to be common in NYC. I certainly see garbage trucks do this but I see taxis, delivery trucks and normal cars do it as well. Most slow down to make sure there's no oncoming traffic from the side street but you can't rely on being noticed as a pedestrian. - In Australia, when cars turn left (remember, other side of the road there), pedestrians have right of way when crossing the street (if it's not at a traffic light). You're playing with your life as a pedestrian if you rely on that however. I think I would go ballistic if I ever got a ticket for jaywalking in NYC. Fact is, it's most dangerous as a pedestrian (and probably a cyclist) when you believe you have right of way. When you know you don't you're much more careful. In California I feel like I'm taking my life in my hands anytime I walk anywhere (in SV although SF is fine). The whole turning right at red lights being OK thing is a recipe for killing pedestrians and I really wish it didn't exist. I really look forward to the day when all cars are self-driving. If the number of people killed in car accidents were killed by disease it would be epidemic. It's hard to fathom just how blase people can be about injury and death on such a massive scale. Of course how this will play out will be fairly predictable. You will have probably a large segment of the population who sticks to their guns regarding driving themselves as a personal liberty, lives be damned.
blaubaer 14y ago
>Lay Off the Horn If you're cycling on the road, even though there is a perfectly good bike lane right next to it, I will honk at you. Every single time.
- Zak 14y ago
  Is this common where you live? I do quite a bit of cycling and am very aware of cyclists when driving. I often see what the author describes as "pedestrians on bicycles" using the sidewalk when a bike lane is available, but cyclists outside of a bike lane on the road are quite rare most places unless they're preparing to turn toward the inside (i.e. a left turn in places where it's customary to drive on the right). When learning to drive (and before), I was taught that that the horn is for alerting other people to dangerous situations and preventing collisions. It is not for expressing anger or frustration at other people. I've noticed that people tend to become angry or frustrated much more quickly when driving and when interacting with someone who is driving (e.g. as a pedestrian). You might want to consider whether you're acting under the influence of a disinhibition effect and ask yourself whether you want to yell "CHANGE WHAT YOU'RE DOING OR I'LL HIT YOU WITH MY CAR" at a cyclist for forcing you to drive slower for 30 seconds. That's what honking a horn conveys.
- bryanlarsen 14y ago
  As somebody who sometimes cycles on the road even though there is a bicycle path and gets honked at by assholes like you, there are usually many different reasons why a bicycle isn't using the bicycle path. Here are some of them: - it's actually not a bike path. It looks like a bike path, but if it doesn't have a yellow stripe down the middle and isn't signed, it's a sidewalk, and it's illegal and probably dangerous to cycle on it. - the speed limit on the path is 20 km/h, and I'm going 30. - it's a mixed use path, frequented by toddlers who are very unpredictable and sometimes hard to avoid when going at high speed. I'd rather deal with assholes on the road than endanger toddlers. - it's a mixed use path, frequented by people walking dogs. They're dangerous because dogs can veer suddenly, and that leash can snare a bicycle very easily - it has poor road crossings. Most "recreational" bicycle paths in North American cities are much more dangerous for cyclists than riding on the road is, even though they seem safer. Why? 90-95% of all bicycle fatalities happen at intersections. The bicycle path still has to cross roads, and they generally do so either by merging with the sidewalk or by setting up a crossing a few yards away from the intersection. Some drivers do not slow down or look until they reach the intersection proper. To cross safely you have to slow down to walking pace and be hyper-vigilant like a jaywalker. The safest place in an intersection is as close to the centre as you can get, where you are visible to everybody. - it has lots of curves and lots of close trees. Which means that visibility around curves is very poor, so it's not safe. It was designed for pedestrians, not cyclists. - it doesn't actually go where I want to go. This is more common than you think: just because it parallels your road now, doesn't mean it will later - I don't know where I'm going. Bike paths are very random, and often aren't marked on maps. If I'm following a map designed for cars, I have no choice but to use your road. In summary, most so-called "bike paths" in North America are really just repurposed walking paths, and are unsafe and slow. Cyclists should be on the road.
SoftwareMaven 14y ago
I would love to road bike, but northern Utah doesn't have a year-round cycle culture, which means people never quite learn how to ride with cyclists. Scares me to death (and this coming from a motorcyclist, so my tolerance isn't super low).
bkrull 14y ago
Honest question for cyclists - why do you continue biking? It sounds like cycling is far more dangerous and potentially deadly than driving. As others mentioned you'll never "educate away" the problem. The road system is clearly not designed for cycling so both drivers and cyclists are annoyed. What is it that you get out of cycling to make it worth the risk?
- rwallace 14y ago
  Two things that may be worth taking into account: 1. Most people have a value system that doesn't refer only to themselves. Driving has staggering negative externalities. Every time somebody forgoes a car for some - any - other method of transport, everyone on the planet becomes a little better off. 2. Daily exercise is one of the few things really demonstrated to significantly improve your health, productivity and lifespan. If you have the temperament or willpower to go to the gym everyday, that's fine. If not, being able to make your mode of transport double as exercise is arguably worth significantly increased risk.
- Zak 14y ago
  The cost of keeping a car legal to drive (insurance, registration) for a year is enough to buy a fairly nice bicycle. That doesn't count the fuel and maintenance costs if you actually drive the car nor the cost of buying the car. In many areas, parking is very limited, but there's usually something sturdy to lock a bike to or the option of bringing it inside. There's also the bit where a commute is also a workout.
cmod 14y ago
If you want to become a superb cyclist, three months of riding around Shanghai is an excellent training course.
jack-r-abbit 14y ago
I hear a lot of complaining about not being enough bike lanes. I get that. we need more. But I absolutely do not understand why cyclists that do have a bike lane still choose to ride right on the white line that separates their lane from mine. You have a good 3-4 feet all to your self... use it! Oh... and stop at traffic lights and stop signs like everyone else.
- freiheit 14y ago
  Because many of those bike lanes are 90% door zone or have other hazards, leaving almost on top of the white line the safest part of the lane.
  - jack-r-abbit 14y ago
    Not the ones I'm talking about. I see many more bike lanes that have no road side hazards and bikers still ride on the white line.

66 points by xbryanx 14y ago

cpt1138 14y ago

Preaching to the choir. The chances of a driver reading this and actually doing anything are nil.

antidoh 14y ago
Maybe. I'm a driver. I read it. I learned.
- kabdib 14y ago
  This is incredibly off-topic for HN. However, I will add one more piece of advice for drivers: Take a motorcycle safety course. You don't /have/ to ride, of course, but it will probably be a lot of fun and it will teach you a LOT about your level of awareness on the road. (For instance: The MSF courses teach you to look ahead about twelve seconds. I'm guessing that most drivers only have a couple seconds of planning, if that. Similarly, always having contingencies -- "where do I go if that truck changes lanes?" -- and noticing little things -- "that rear-view mirror is canted, so that driver isn't even bothering to look.") Okay, back to r/HN :-)
  - antidoh 14y ago
    "This is incredibly off-topic for HN." You're almost completely correct, except for the "interesting to hackers" caveat in the guidelines. Even with the caveat, this is probably still off-topic. Except that a lot of readers probably ride. But still it's probably off-topic. Except ... I've noticed a lot of weekend posts that are both off-topic and interesting, and I tend to see weekends on HN as a brief relaxing of the rules. Which I like.
    - hughw 14y ago
      It was Bike to Work day, so it's topical.
  - rdl 14y ago
    The MSF course is something I would strongly recommend for anyone able to take it, rider or not. All of the people I'd consider good drivers have taken one (or are 20k+ mile motorcyclists), even when driving cars.
  - slantyyz 14y ago
    Might be useful, but I do notice (possibly selectively) that a lot of the motorcyclists where I live are dangerous riders. The young riders who seem to favor the racing bikes in my area (Greater Toronto Area, Canada) seem to be quite dangerous in their habits, whereas the older ones who ride Harleys and the like are much less aggressive on our roadways.

antidoh 14y ago

“Bicycle riders on public roads have the same rights and responsibilities as motorists, and are subject to the same rules and regulations.” Imagine a car, coming to a red light in the right lane. It then turns right on red, but rather than driving on in the new road, it makes a sudden u-turn, coming back to the intersection. Then makes a right on green, and continues on in the original direction. If you're a rider, discourage your colleagues from this practice. It's a violation of the responsibilities listed in the quote above, but worse, it promotes contempt for cyclists among us drivers. It's easier to promote cross-community cooperation when you're not cherry picking your responsibilities.

mikeash 14y ago
Each side wants all of the rights and none of the responsibilities, which should be no surprise. Cyclists like to ignore traffic signals when they're inconvenient. Cars like to pass bicyclists unsafely when staying behind them is inconvenient. Both sides abhor signaling. I think what we really need is less group labeling. When a car driver fails to signal, we don't generally think, "Man, car drivers are so inconsiderate." (Well, I often do. But I think that's unusual.) Yet when a bicyclist does something against the rules, suddenly this is taken as representative of everyone on two wheels.
- WiseWeasel 14y ago
  Personally, I think a lot of the contention stems from the huge number of 4-way stop intersections in the US. Coming to a complete stop and starting again is rough on a car engine, and especially rough on a bike rider, who must lose and rebuild all that momentum with his own strength. Also, a bike rider starting from a complete start will go through the intersection much more slowly than car traffic, causing an obstruction to traffic flow. Other countries use roundabouts, and while that's not necessarily the answer, there might be other remedies. California is famous for the "California Stop", where you come to a near stop and roll forward slowly for a few seconds while you wait your turn, which if done systematically, is an option which seems relatively safe and conserving of momentum. As a rider, I try to time my arrival at an intersection to share the turn of a car going in the same direction and slip through without coming to a stop if I can.

viraptor 14y ago

And yet there are strange projects going on like allowing bicycles to run red lights: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3311182.ece http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3311... Apparently the change was discussed in UK too for some test periods and I'm really afraid of it. The greatest danger in my mind is not that the collision may happen. The worst part is that if I collide with another car at 10mph, the worst that can happen is that both cars will need some new paint, even if I don't hit the break. At the same speed, it's possible I'm going to kill a cyclist - pretty much actually run over him before I start breaking if he suddenly appears in front of me.

zaccus 14y ago

In Chicago I've almost never seen a cyclist stop at a red light or stop sign. Cyclists here feel free to ride on the wrong side of the road, weave in and out of traffic, and cut off drivers. I'm no lawyer, but I fear that if I hit one of these clowns then I'll be completely at-fault. It sucks. Worst of all, I've never, ever seen a cyclist get pulled over. If cyclists were held to the same responsibilities as drivers, that would be one thing. But they're not, hence the resentment.

dasil003 14y ago
> In Chicago I've almost never seen a cyclist stop at a red light or stop sign. Then you're not paying enough attention to cyclists. Stop and take a deep breath before you kill someone.
- nachteilig 14y ago
  That's really unnecessary. In fact, cyclists here rarely if ever stop at stop signs. It's a very dangerous situation.
to3m 14y ago
Well, I don't know if you've noticed, but cyclists ride bikes, whereas car drivers drive cars. Car drivers should be prepared to take a bit more responsibility for their actions, given the amount of damage they can cause. Anyway, is it seriously that big a deal? Avoid them, like you'd avoid a dog, or a toddler, or a man in a BMW, or some other agent that doesn't seem to comprehend the rules of the road, and then ignore the matter.
- slantyyz 14y ago
  Where I live, a pedestrian was killed by a cyclist. http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1048256--cyclists-defend-using-sidewalk-where-pedestrian-was-struck-and-killed http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1048256--cyclists-defend...
  - hughw 14y ago

zobzu 14y ago

I've been riding bikes to work every day in a few parts of Europe for about 10 years, including big cities traffic, suburbs and rural areas. I've been doing the same in San Francisco for some month recently. In Europe, everyone treat the bike as a vehicule, no question asked. Everyone knows the hand sign. People get doored, and the like but it's rare. You gotta be more careful in heavy traffic, but basically, when riding, it feels safe in most areas. Cars will wait behind you when they can't pass super-safely-with-5-meter-distance-from-your-side almost every time. Nearly everyone of them used a bike and knows how it is, at least, that's the feeling. Now, fast forward to SF. I was surprised, to say the least. If there is no bike lane, something like 90% of the cars simply do not give a single shit about bikes. That is, if you're on the rightmost part of the road, they will pass, no matter what (you can choose here: get even more right and risk being doored, the risk is rather high here. slow down to a near halt and go right [that's what I do]. go straight and hear the honk + generally get hit by the rear view mirror.) Knowing that you can avoid streets without a bike lane, and when forced, take the full lane (you'll hear the honk but you'll live). Here's one that happened to me recently: some streets in SF have a tram lane and a car lane. No bike lane. car pushed me on the tram lane thinking 'thats where cyclists go'. Tram was coming behind of course. Got to feel the friction of both car and tram. No injuries. Unfortunately I don't have a good alternative route. Here's another thing that happens everyday: Car park in the bike lane, so you gotta pass it. Look behind you, car is coming, so you slow down, and let them pass (they will never let you pass). If there is a continuous flow of cars, and it happens, none will let you pass. Most cyclists just pass and assume the driver will slow down (and get angry but hey, you gotta pass some day). Personally, I just wait as long as it takes or walk it on the side walk if its more than a minute. Pedestrians are no better. They don't cross at red if cars are coming. But they do for bikes. Why the hell? I understand crossing at red when it's safe, don't get me wrong, but don't cross in front of bikes that's extremely dumb. Cyclists are no better either. 50% (?) ignore the signs and traffic entirely. That being said I noticed that in some parts of the city this is actually safer to cross at the red light while cars are waiting, than waiting with the cars (in line or slightly in front, although I always go slightly i front to be sure they see me). Sad but true. If you start with the cars, they wont let you start first and thus you may get hit if the bike lane is not wide enough or simply not there. Even if there is a bike lane, its gone when there's a crossing and drivers naturally push you on the right side for some reason. I still stop at all traffic lights but this is disturbing me a lot lately. Whats the point of respecting the red light in all situations in the US, being killed? and I bet that's why so many ignore them. Finally, after a few month I personally got "right turned", and broke some bones, hence my super-safe behavior assuming the driver is going to be doing the wrong thing in every situation. Before I would expect that some situations were safe, such as the right turn if you're in front of the cars. But no. They just turn into you even thus they've seen you, because, you're a bike, you'll probably brake in time, plus you should be on the sidewalk, etc. So yeah, I never cross a street without slowing down a lot if a car is less than 10 meters behind me (and obviously if its next to me or slightly ahead, even thus I'm on a bike lane, although they're supposed to switch lane) As a last anecdotal story of this very long post, I was also surprised by rainy days. About, let's say, 15% of the cars take the opportunity to splash you when they can. Seriously. My last rainy day in SF, that happened 3 times over my 20min ride back home. The last one the guy stopped and laughed. I was 100% soaked. It means to me that a high enough number of drivers absolutely hate cyclists with passion. WTF is wrong with people?

the_mat 14y ago

A good article, thanks for writing it. I'm not convinced that a majority of cyclists understand that they have to follow the same rules as motorized vehicles. It's unusual to see the driver of a car blast through a stop sign without slowing down at all. It happens, but not that often. On the other hand, it's unusual for me to see a cyclist who doesn't run stop signs. I can see why: because you're going slower and have a full view around you. But that's still not an excuse if you're going to play the "cars and bikes are both vehicles" card.

mattstreet 14y ago
There are different laws for bikes, it isn't just bike == vehicle. Example: http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadrights/2009/07/28/a-stop-sign-solution/ http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadrights/2009/07/28/a-stop-sign...

ronnier 14y ago

To the cyclists among us, how do you overcome the fear of riding in the middle of heavy trafficked roads during rush hour? This is very common in the Seattle area and almost as common in Dallas.

awolf 14y ago
For me, the realization that it is actually SAFER to claim the lane rather than be meek and risk getting doored or risk being in a position where cars assume they should pass you. Better to piss people off than risk your life. Plus, in most of those heavily trafficked roads the cars that are getting pissed off are delusional and don't realize that you're basically moving at the same speed as traffic anyway.
Moto7451 14y ago
At least in LA around the parts that I commute, when rush hour hits cars are traveling at walking speeds or completely stopped except for short bursts so I'm traveling between three and five times faster than they are if I'm lane sharing (Lane sharing is legal for cycles in CA). If I take the lane I'm in the clear during rush hour as well. The thing to remember is that a cyclist on a road bike is generally able to accelerate faster 0-5 or 0-10 than most vehicles from a stop so clearing an intersection with the cars isn't hard. Cars obviously leave cyclists behind past 5-10MPH because they've overcome their inertia. Usually the only guys clearing an intersection before me on a start are guys on sport bikes and I can lane share with them (though we'd look silly for not just bypassing the traffic). When you're the faster vehicle its rather reassuring since you can more or less get the same respect as everyone in a car after a couple blocks. If the traffic is moving at a good speed for a bike, you can usually you can just blend into a lane and no one will honk or look at you funny... after all, the cars holding the cyclist up and I think everyone is happier when we're not lane sharing.
WiseWeasel 14y ago
Find bike routes or low-traffic streets and stick to those.
zobzu 14y ago
Personally, I don't. I always think about it. I watch my back at every single crossing. Every one of them, zero exception. I slow down when it goes down hill. I slow down when cars are next to me. I don't care if some bikes pass me full speed like "hey look how fast i go". I don't go slow either, but I'm not "full speed". Bikes brake very poorly, specially road bikes. (Mountain bikes brake a lot better, btw. Much larger tire.) Also important, if there are cars parked in busy areas I go on the far left of the bike lane (there's no way you can anticipate being door'd). Saves me about twice a week. I go back on the far right whenever there's no cars parked. And when there's no bike lane and cars go by relatively fast, I just claim the lane (of course you need to go nearly as fast as cars for that, else you're going to piss off a lot of people and create traffic issues).

swdunlop 14y ago

"If, for instance, you are behind a cyclist and approaching a stop, passing the cyclist likely will gain you nothing. In fact, you may end up passing the cyclist twice: once before the intersection, a second time after. Which, let’s face it, is going to annoy you." Speaking as a cyclist, I hope not -- that means the cyclist has advanced past a car in front of him in the lane, which is a stupid thing to do. Either own the lane and be a vehicle, or get off the bike and on the sidewalk.

zobzu 14y ago
Actually that doesn't work that way. In many states sharing the lane is legitimate, and biking no the sidewalk as well. But that means, you're fine with all bikes claiming the complete lane right? That means you can't pass them at the stop, and you can't pass them as long as the left lane is not 100% free (just like passing a car). When I do claim the lane when I bike (it happens that I need to, if there's no bike lane and it's a dangerous part of the road), I don't pass cars at the stop. But again, most of the time, I don't, and can't, claim the lane. This means I'd rather be in front of the cars at the stop (= they see me) than next to the cars 3 cars behind the stop (= whoever turn right, won't see me, and since they rarely use the signalization lights, or perform another stop before turning right, it means its horribly dangerous)
scott_w 14y ago
In the UK, many traffic lights have a space for cyclists at the front and centre, so cyclists can skip to the front and maneuver the junction more safely. This leads to many cases where a driver will have to pass a cyclist twice.

awolf 14y ago

A regional note for San Francisco: the bikers here aren't helping things. We seem to have a disproportionate number of asshole bikers who seem to think they are entitled to fly through stop-signs as 10/15 mph. As a person who both bikes and drives a lot in the city I see both sides of this coin. I understand that coming to a full stop is an expensive operation for cyclists... but approaching a 4 way stop with cars already at the intersection and then suddenly deciding that you're a magical cyclist that doesn't need to obey traffic laws is both dangerous and pisses of motorists which only increase tension for all people involved.

vbtemp 14y ago
Amen to that!
garyrichardson 14y ago
I believe this is universal -- it also happens in Vancouver, BC. Cyclists complain about motorists, motorists complain about cyclists. A certain percentage of each group are jerks who don't play nicely.

tomjakubowski 14y ago

I was taught to always open the driver's-side door (left-hand drive) with my RIGHT hand, which forces you to turn your body (and head) to look for potential dooring victims.

aidos 14y ago
Good idea, like it. If everyone was taught that I could have been saved a fair amount of pain in the past.

SteveC 14y ago

In Japan, where many people cycle, they ride on the footpath. It seems to work out fine.

fivethirty 14y ago
The trade off being that it takes twice as long to get anywhere because you can't go very fast. At least that was my experience commuting on a bike in Japan.
cmod 14y ago
Pedestrians also become hyper aware and responsive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_MphtzCOEc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_MphtzCOEc

grannyg00se 14y ago

"If there is no bike lane, something like 90% of the cars simply do not give a single shit about bikes." You have to respect the culture in which you are immersed. It seems insane to me that cyclists would even consider riding on a road that has no bike lane. Right or wrong, the existence of bike lanes sets up a dichotomy in people's minds. Either there is a bike lane and bikes belong there (and I have to be aware of them), or there is no bike lane and bikes do not belong (I won't be expecting them - I may even resent their presence). Pedestrians have their place, and cars have their place. Bikes have their place, but unfortunately only on a few select roadways.

fivethirty 14y ago
Except that, as is mentioned in the OP, in the US cyclists are legally allowed use most all roadways and are treated legally like an automobile in cases where a bike lane does not exist.
- grannyg00se 14y ago
  That may be the case, legally. But as the OP indicates, that is not always the case, culturally. But if bicycles are treated like motor vehicles, why is it that you often find them creating a lane where there is none? You don't often see motorcycles riding alongside cars, in the same lane, grazing parked vehicles.
  - fivethirty 14y ago
    But if bicycles are treated like motor vehicles, why is it that you often find them creating a lane where there is none? You don't often see motorcycles riding alongside cars, in the same lane, grazing parked vehicles. I'm not 100% sure what you're describing, but it sounds like you are talking about a situation where a cyclist is riding on the far right side of the lane next to the parked cars and is being passed in the same lane by other cars. What sounds dangerous to me about this situation is not that the cyclist is creating his own lane (because he's not, he's in the proper right most lane), but rather that cars are trying to pass him (a vehicle that is legally allowed to be there) without leaving enough room. Also, kind of off topic, but where I'm from (California), motorcycles are legally allowed to weave between lanes and do it all the time. Not that I think this is a particularly smart think to do :)

revelation 14y ago

Can we shortcut through the usual discussions? As a cyclist, I'm hyper aware of the fact that I'm not a 4 ton steel SUV. If you see me do something dangerous, comfort your rage with the simple fact that it will likely kill or severely injure me if it comes to that. If you see me break the law, know that per law I'll be fined like a normal vehicle, even though these are based off the danger radiating from a SUV going 40mph.

furyofantares 14y ago
> If you see me do something dangerous, comfort your rage with the simple fact that it will likely kill or severely injure me if it comes to that. Why would that comfort anyone? It's distressing to watch someone do something dangerous specifically because of the fear that they may injur or kill themselves.
wccrawford 14y ago
As a cyclist and a motorist, that's bullshit. As a cyclist, you're making motorists angry, and that makes it less safe for me. As a motorist, there's a chance you'll pull some stupid shit and I'll be the one that hits you. And then I have to live the rest of my life with your death on my conscience, even though it wasn't really my fault. Stop doing dangerous shit on the roads.

vbtemp 14y ago

I want to co-exist with bikers, I really do. I wish our cities on the east coast would be more bike friendly. But bikers need to make up their minds. Who are they, vehicles or pedestrians? Each comes with it's own rights and obligations. I see bikers all the time blow through red lights, stop signs, and pedestrian crosswalks. When I'm a driver I always need to slam on the breaks to avoid hitting them as such intersections when I have the right-of-way or a green light. And in dense cities a biker can cause a tremendous backup, with gridlock followng him as he makes his way through the city. Likewise, when I'm a pedestrian, I constantly need to watch not for cars, but for high speed bikers blowing perpendicularly through pedestrian crosswalks when the pedestrians have the crossing light. Why do they get to blow through pedestrian crosswalks and red lights and stop signs? EDIT: And bikers who listen to their iPod and wear headphones while blowing through red lights - F you!

gte910h 14y ago
I drive a Prius. I have been hit by cyclists t-boning me 3 times because they follow the "listen, don't look" school of cycling. (I have never hit one)
- eaurouge 14y ago
  Oh my! A Prius driver complaining about other road users :-) I have a problem with Prius drivers, they always seem more interested in improving their gas mileage personal best than driving a reasonable speed on the freeway.
  - gte910h 14y ago
    Not me, I drive it like any other car. I turn off the crash screen while driving.
- zobzu 14y ago
  How did that exactly happen? I understand the car is quiet, but I'm wondering how the situation was. Most of the time cars pass and brake (bike can't brake nearly as good as a car).

fotbr 14y ago

Invalid assertion. I didn't notice more cyclists on my commute, and it is absolutely not a cause for concern - there were none. That's right. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. The entire list of vehicles encountered during my commute on the 18th was: the same guy I often see around town on his goldwing, a maroon 70s or very early 80s firebird or camaro, three pickups, a dump truck, the county sheriff in his personal car (he lives a few houses down from me), and a rather large John Deere tractor being moved from one field to another on the other side of the railroad tracks. Oh, and a train, on those tracks, carrying, amongst other things, 737 bodies on their way to final assembly. And while it's not a vehicle - one skunk, freshly killed. My commute is 12 miles (one direction) of 2 lane roads across farmland. It's flat, boring, and the roads are in pretty poor condition with no shoulders. The cyclists in this area stick to other routes for their long-distance rides, where the pavement is in much better shape, and they have a shoulder that they can use if they have to dodge an idiot, instead of finding an overgrown ditch and a barbed-wire fence.

Moto7451 14y ago
Common reason is comfort but I think the loud colors are purely for show. Just like having a flashy car. They make cycling kits that look like every day wear, especially for mountain biking where having a bit if extra material is extremely helpful when you run out of talent and crash ;). Personally, I just wear cargo shorts with gussets and a brightly colored exercise shirt (like the kind worn for running). Visibility and comfort without looking like a billboard.

WalterBright 14y ago

I live in Seattle, and there are a lot of cyclists. I don't bike any more because it's too dangerous. But I have a question for the cyclists: What's with wearing the tour de france outfit? 9/10 cyclists are wearing racing outfits covered with logos. They aren't racing, they're just biking to work or biking because it's a nice day out. 1/10 is wearing shorts and a t-shirt, what I wore when biking.

cletus 14y ago

Cars aren't just rough on cyclists. Being a pedestrian is dangerous enough. In NYC it's not so bad since there are so many pedestrians that drivers are somewhat used to it (and are often pedestrians themselves). But even here you have to watch out: - In NYC it is illegal to turn right at a red light. Seriously, I wish people would learn this. Actually I wish cops would enforce this; - As a whole you can't trust cars to indicate in the US in my experience. Not indicating and turning is common enough but you sometimes see indicating and not turning. I guess people change their mind; - Running red lights, particularly at night, seems to be common in NYC. I certainly see garbage trucks do this but I see taxis, delivery trucks and normal cars do it as well. Most slow down to make sure there's no oncoming traffic from the side street but you can't rely on being noticed as a pedestrian. - In Australia, when cars turn left (remember, other side of the road there), pedestrians have right of way when crossing the street (if it's not at a traffic light). You're playing with your life as a pedestrian if you rely on that however. I think I would go ballistic if I ever got a ticket for jaywalking in NYC. Fact is, it's most dangerous as a pedestrian (and probably a cyclist) when you believe you have right of way. When you know you don't you're much more careful. In California I feel like I'm taking my life in my hands anytime I walk anywhere (in SV although SF is fine). The whole turning right at red lights being OK thing is a recipe for killing pedestrians and I really wish it didn't exist. I really look forward to the day when all cars are self-driving. If the number of people killed in car accidents were killed by disease it would be epidemic. It's hard to fathom just how blase people can be about injury and death on such a massive scale. Of course how this will play out will be fairly predictable. You will have probably a large segment of the population who sticks to their guns regarding driving themselves as a personal liberty, lives be damned.

blaubaer 14y ago

>Lay Off the Horn If you're cycling on the road, even though there is a perfectly good bike lane right next to it, I will honk at you. Every single time.

Zak 14y ago
Is this common where you live? I do quite a bit of cycling and am very aware of cyclists when driving. I often see what the author describes as "pedestrians on bicycles" using the sidewalk when a bike lane is available, but cyclists outside of a bike lane on the road are quite rare most places unless they're preparing to turn toward the inside (i.e. a left turn in places where it's customary to drive on the right). When learning to drive (and before), I was taught that that the horn is for alerting other people to dangerous situations and preventing collisions. It is not for expressing anger or frustration at other people. I've noticed that people tend to become angry or frustrated much more quickly when driving and when interacting with someone who is driving (e.g. as a pedestrian). You might want to consider whether you're acting under the influence of a disinhibition effect and ask yourself whether you want to yell "CHANGE WHAT YOU'RE DOING OR I'LL HIT YOU WITH MY CAR" at a cyclist for forcing you to drive slower for 30 seconds. That's what honking a horn conveys.
bryanlarsen 14y ago
As somebody who sometimes cycles on the road even though there is a bicycle path and gets honked at by assholes like you, there are usually many different reasons why a bicycle isn't using the bicycle path. Here are some of them: - it's actually not a bike path. It looks like a bike path, but if it doesn't have a yellow stripe down the middle and isn't signed, it's a sidewalk, and it's illegal and probably dangerous to cycle on it. - the speed limit on the path is 20 km/h, and I'm going 30. - it's a mixed use path, frequented by toddlers who are very unpredictable and sometimes hard to avoid when going at high speed. I'd rather deal with assholes on the road than endanger toddlers. - it's a mixed use path, frequented by people walking dogs. They're dangerous because dogs can veer suddenly, and that leash can snare a bicycle very easily - it has poor road crossings. Most "recreational" bicycle paths in North American cities are much more dangerous for cyclists than riding on the road is, even though they seem safer. Why? 90-95% of all bicycle fatalities happen at intersections. The bicycle path still has to cross roads, and they generally do so either by merging with the sidewalk or by setting up a crossing a few yards away from the intersection. Some drivers do not slow down or look until they reach the intersection proper. To cross safely you have to slow down to walking pace and be hyper-vigilant like a jaywalker. The safest place in an intersection is as close to the centre as you can get, where you are visible to everybody. - it has lots of curves and lots of close trees. Which means that visibility around curves is very poor, so it's not safe. It was designed for pedestrians, not cyclists. - it doesn't actually go where I want to go. This is more common than you think: just because it parallels your road now, doesn't mean it will later - I don't know where I'm going. Bike paths are very random, and often aren't marked on maps. If I'm following a map designed for cars, I have no choice but to use your road. In summary, most so-called "bike paths" in North America are really just repurposed walking paths, and are unsafe and slow. Cyclists should be on the road.

SoftwareMaven 14y ago

I would love to road bike, but northern Utah doesn't have a year-round cycle culture, which means people never quite learn how to ride with cyclists. Scares me to death (and this coming from a motorcyclist, so my tolerance isn't super low).

bkrull 14y ago

Honest question for cyclists - why do you continue biking? It sounds like cycling is far more dangerous and potentially deadly than driving. As others mentioned you'll never "educate away" the problem. The road system is clearly not designed for cycling so both drivers and cyclists are annoyed. What is it that you get out of cycling to make it worth the risk?

rwallace 14y ago
Two things that may be worth taking into account: 1. Most people have a value system that doesn't refer only to themselves. Driving has staggering negative externalities. Every time somebody forgoes a car for some - any - other method of transport, everyone on the planet becomes a little better off. 2. Daily exercise is one of the few things really demonstrated to significantly improve your health, productivity and lifespan. If you have the temperament or willpower to go to the gym everyday, that's fine. If not, being able to make your mode of transport double as exercise is arguably worth significantly increased risk.
Zak 14y ago
The cost of keeping a car legal to drive (insurance, registration) for a year is enough to buy a fairly nice bicycle. That doesn't count the fuel and maintenance costs if you actually drive the car nor the cost of buying the car. In many areas, parking is very limited, but there's usually something sturdy to lock a bike to or the option of bringing it inside. There's also the bit where a commute is also a workout.

cmod 14y ago

If you want to become a superb cyclist, three months of riding around Shanghai is an excellent training course.

jack-r-abbit 14y ago

I hear a lot of complaining about not being enough bike lanes. I get that. we need more. But I absolutely do not understand why cyclists that do have a bike lane still choose to ride right on the white line that separates their lane from mine. You have a good 3-4 feet all to your self... use it! Oh... and stop at traffic lights and stop signs like everyone else.

freiheit 14y ago
Because many of those bike lanes are 90% door zone or have other hazards, leaving almost on top of the white line the safest part of the lane.
- jack-r-abbit 14y ago
  Not the ones I'm talking about. I see many more bike lanes that have no road side hazards and bikers still ride on the white line.