7 ms·

What are the redeeming qualities of Germany?

fleshmonad 3y ago
Note that I am a German. I would say there are few. Bad education, especially in schools, a broken railway and public transport system, as well as incredibly high taxes. You may say "free healthcare" and a point can be made here, but when you take a look at the high taxes you have to pay, it's not worth it, if your income is above average. All in all it's a mess and I haven't even begun speaking about German people and their mentality, as well as poverty and unsuccessful immigration.
- lrem 3y ago
  Looks like you really want to move to Switzerland :D
  - fransje26 3y ago
    To then start complaining about the costs of living..?
- Keyframe 3y ago
  (rants) yep, you are German alright!
  - MrJohz 3y ago
    Truly the worst thing about living in Germany is the apparent national hobby of complaining about things that perhaps aren't great, but really aren't as bad as you might think. In practice, German schools are pretty decent, but they obsess about PISA scores and so neglect to ever notice what the schools are doing well. The train networks are fairly extensive, can be quite cheap depending on how you travel, and consistent across the country, but a lot of Germans would much rather complain about how late they are than recognise anything positive about the system. The general public transport networks (i.e. transport inside towns and cities) are amazing, and one of the things that I would most miss if I went anywhere else. I think part of it is just that if you're German, you rarely see these systems from an outside perspective, so you only see the points that chafe regularly. But another part of it really is just that German tendency to criticise first rather than to view things holistically.
    - sien 3y ago
      I went on exchange to Germany. Somehow there should be a ranking of the foreign language abilities of countries. There Germany would do incredibly well. It's strange that people obsess over math school rankings, but how many people do calculus beyond their schooling where as many, many people use a foreign language often in their work. It's a non-BS thing people can learn at school and something that Northern Europeans do spectacularly well at.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - RamblingCTO 3y ago
      I disagree heavily. Just because you have trains going everywhere (that's not a Germany-specific thing) doesn't mean they are allowed to be hours late. The transport system is broken, was destroyed by trying to cut costs in the past. Same with schools and educators. And don't get me started on healthcare. Your sentiment is part of the problem to be honest: Germans are always complaining, it's fine as it is bla bla. It is if you compare yourself to third world countries. But we compete with Japan, Switzerland, the nordics and so on. Also note that this is not a sentiment that is only found in Germans but also a lot of (high value) immigrants who move on after touching base. Germany has a lot of potential but utilizes that very little. Why would I recognize anything positive about the transport system that has a high likelihood of making my trip a nightmare? It's literally the most important thing, to get me from a to b. That doesn't work with massive delays, cancellations, reschedulings and I miss my connections.
      - earthnail 3y ago
        For what it’s worth, I’m German and live in Sweden and the train network is significantly worse than in Germany. There are serious structural deficiencies at Deutsche Bahn, absolutely. But the gras is also always greener elsewhere. The nordics don’t have a better train network. It’s bad enough in Sweden that a Chinese company has started offering the MTRX, basically the ICE equivalent between the two largest cities (although much slower, more like an IC) and that’s the best connection you can get. Imagine the outcry if that was the case in Germany for Munich-Berlin…
  - barbazoo 3y ago
    In certain parts of Germany the German equivalent of "You really can't complain" is the highest form of praise.
    - croes 3y ago
      The sentence "You really can't complain" is a complain itself.
      - dkga 3y ago
        Yes, never noted that!
- croes 3y ago
  Incredibly high taxes? Denmark has higher taxes. And don't forget Germany has one of the lowest annual working hours in the world https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm
  - RamblingCTO 3y ago
    You're misinformed. Second highest tax burden [1], in Europe and the OECD [2]. [1] https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/global/tax-burden-on-labor-oecd-2021/ https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/global/tax-burden-on-labo... [2] https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/eu/tax-burden-labor-europe-2023/ https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/eu/tax-burden-labor-europ...
    - croes 3y ago
      Never trust a conservative think tank on taxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Foundation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Foundation >Payroll taxes are typically flat-rate taxes levied on wages and are in addition to the taxes on income. In most OECD countries, both the employer and the employee pay payroll taxes. These taxes usually fund specific social programs, such as unemployment insurance, health insurance, and old age insurance. Social security and pesnions aren't financed by taxes, in Germany taxes are not earmarked for a specific purpose. If you would replace social security and pension contributions by private insurances with the same costs people wouldn't have more money available but the Germany's index position would be better. You could even double the costs and the index would claim an advantage for workers even though they would have less money.
      - RamblingCTO 3y ago
        Sooo is statisa [1] also a conservative think tank? I don't see anything wrong with the quote you provided. > Social security and pesnions aren't financed by taxes, in Germany taxes are not earmarked for a specific purpose. Not sure I can follow. Of course the pensions and social security are quite substantially tax funded [2]. [1] https://de.statista.com/infografik/13660/oecd-vergleich-steuern--und-abgaben/ https://de.statista.com/infografik/13660/oecd-vergleich-steu... [2] https://www.ihre-vorsorge.de/rente/nachrichten/haushalt-fuer-rente-und-sozialleistungen-ist-auch-2024-der-groesste-posten https://www.ihre-vorsorge.de/rente/nachrichten/haushalt-fuer...
chironjit 3y ago
The best I'd say is a sense of collectiveness that is somewhat higher than other countries. It's not nationalism. Rather, there is some amount of willingness to give up personal comfort for some sort of general/societal greater good. This is really something I've noticed compared to say the UK, Australia, certain asian countries, etc. Not sure why it hasn't translated to improving bureaucracy.
- fleshmonad 3y ago
  Can you provide some examples of what germans bind together for the "greater good"? I seem to have missed it.
  - Archelaos 3y ago
    Almost one million volunteer firefighters (Freiwillige Feuerwehr). These are 96.95 % of all firefighters. (For comparison: the UK quota is 2.31%.)[1] Very popular to participate especially in many rural parts of Germany. [1] Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiwillige_Feuerwehr#Deutschland https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiwillige_Feuerwehr#Deutschl... (in German)
  - ulfw 3y ago
    Following and make the most pedantic rules. Germans loooooove setting rules and expect everyone to follow or else they rat you or or sue you even. (see neighbour conflicts about hedges growing too far etc)
- tazjin 3y ago
  > The best I'd say is a sense of collectiveness that is somewhat higher than other countries. I wouldn't say that this comes anywhere close to many other countries in Germany. Societal coherence in e.g. Russia or Norway is much higher than in Germany. I think it's rather the other way around: The countries you're comparing to might be exceptionally bad at it, and Germany is average.
  - racked 3y ago
    Can you elaborate on societal coherence in Russia? This in particular piques my interest; what I hear from Russia is that it's a place where any interpersonal conflict is resolved with (verbal) violence.
karma_pharmer 3y ago
The hacker subculture there is incredible; closest thing to late-1990s bay area (before the flood of money killed everything) that's still alive today. But yeah, there are a lot of negatives counterbalancing that.
- CalRobert 3y ago
  Is Chaos Communication Congress worth a visit for an American who speaks crappy German?
  - com 3y ago
    Yes. Live translation services are provided for the minority of formal stuff that’s done in German. Drinking beer in the alternative track, everybody understands each other after a couple of drinks even if they didn’t before.
jjgreen 3y ago
The sausage
- trashburger 3y ago
  Not really, it's just the wurst.
mensetmanusman 3y ago
The most beautiful cities at night, especially Dresden. You never need to own a car, amazing beer, awesome Turkish food, awesome dance clubs in old castles or rundown industrial parks; also life is 10 times better if you're a student :) (I lived in Germany for about a year as an American college exchange student)
Loveaway 3y ago
Orderly, rational people. Hard working, rich country, despite no natural wealth. No cutting corners, one of the reasons bureaucracy is so horrid. You are expected to have your shit together, still people are as lenient as they can be. Things work, you can trust people. Low crime, clean streets. Good sense of morality. Country is capable of much more, still holds itself back a lot, preference in humbleness. Things are built on solid foundations. Not a bad place to be.
- blueflow 3y ago
  > clean streets Living here, i disagree. Just on my way to the train station i saw at least 10 cigarette butts on the ground. And its like that across the whole city.
  - fransje26 3y ago
    I just had some friends visit on the way to their home country, after spending 4 months traveling through Spain. They liked Spain a lot, but the first comment they made when we went for a walk was how clean the streets and the surroundings where. Your cleanliness mileage may vary per Land, I guess.
  - epaga 3y ago
    Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not - but in case you're not - seeing "10 cigarette butts" - instead of, say, piles of trash, dung, old broken down cars, and/or drug paraphernalia - seems pretty clean to me, as cities come.
    - shiroiushi 3y ago
      Yeah, it's amazing how different peoples' expectations are. A bunch of cigarette butts would seem horrible compared to a Japanese train station, but compared to anything in Latin America it would be extremely clean.
- Rinzler89 3y ago
  >rational people Hardly. A lot of people buy into FUD without questioning it. A lot of people never question their government or rules no matter how stupid they are. They'll just tell you to follow the rules even if you explain to them in a 100 page essay why those rules make no sense and are even detrimental. They never acknowledge the possibility that their government/bureaucratic systems in palce can be faulty. If it doesn't work for you, then it must be your fault, not the system's fault. It's the kind of blind trust in the system that lead to the Wirecard scandal happening under the watch of the entire world. Rational people constantly question things, not trust and follow them blindly.
nicbou 3y ago
Mild summers, good work-life balance, the European Union, decent healthcare, ease of travel, nature. Even though I'm currently in a "it's complicated" relationship with Germany, I moved here by choice because I loved the place. These things are still there, but since I'm working so close to Germany's problems, I let it get to me sometimes.
- data_maan 3y ago
  Doesn't that apply to many other countries as well?
Tainnor 3y ago
A country that is incredibly rich in historical significance (both good and bad), cultural traditions, art (historical and modern), regional variety and nature. Cities are walkable, public transport is mostly decent (it's perfectly fine to live without a car if you're in the city), crime is low, poverty is low, the economy has been tanking a bit recently, but has traditionally been doing well. In terms of mentality, Bavarians are very different from Rhinelanders who are very different from East Germans. Berlin is a bubble in and of itself and can't really be compared to the rest. In general, Germans tend to take comfort in clear rules and structure, and are used to a certain kind of cutting through bullshit, both of which may be a good or a bad thing. I'll also add that, to my knowledge, no other country has reflected its own role in history as deeply and critically as Germany has, which to me comes as a bonus even when there is a tendency to overcorrect. Food is IMHO not great (except Käsespatzle), but beer is some of the best in the world.
- data_maan 3y ago
  [flagged]
- danielbln 3y ago
  Don't forget bread. Whenever I travel to the US I'm appalled by what is considered good bread there. Not throwing shade here, it's just what it is. On the flipside, buying Avocados here in Germany is akin to a crime against humanity.
  - Tainnor 3y ago
    One of my pet peeves is how Germans have amazing bread, but then put the blandest possible stuff (like very tasteless Cheese, and one leaf of salad) on top of it, while Italians have great stuff to put on bread but the bread itself is so boring.
  - chrisandchris 3y ago
    Then travel to Switzerland and IMHO German bread is just average anymore.
rockyj 3y ago
Erm.. You do realize that in almost all indexes that matter, Germany is in the top 5% e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_D... You hear people complaining a lot since they like to and we live with crazy priorities like "time to launch a company in days" but in the real world if we had a choice of where you are born Germany will be high on the list.

Note that I am a German. I would say there are few. Bad education, especially in schools, a broken railway and public transport system, as well as incredibly high taxes. You may say "free healthcare" and a point can be made here, but when you take a look at the high taxes you have to pay, it's not worth it, if your income is above average. All in all it's a mess and I haven't even begun speaking about German people and their mentality, as well as poverty and unsuccessful immigration.

lrem 3y ago
Looks like you really want to move to Switzerland :D
- fransje26 3y ago
  To then start complaining about the costs of living..?
Keyframe 3y ago
(rants) yep, you are German alright!
- MrJohz 3y ago
  Truly the worst thing about living in Germany is the apparent national hobby of complaining about things that perhaps aren't great, but really aren't as bad as you might think. In practice, German schools are pretty decent, but they obsess about PISA scores and so neglect to ever notice what the schools are doing well. The train networks are fairly extensive, can be quite cheap depending on how you travel, and consistent across the country, but a lot of Germans would much rather complain about how late they are than recognise anything positive about the system. The general public transport networks (i.e. transport inside towns and cities) are amazing, and one of the things that I would most miss if I went anywhere else. I think part of it is just that if you're German, you rarely see these systems from an outside perspective, so you only see the points that chafe regularly. But another part of it really is just that German tendency to criticise first rather than to view things holistically.
  - sien 3y ago
    I went on exchange to Germany. Somehow there should be a ranking of the foreign language abilities of countries. There Germany would do incredibly well. It's strange that people obsess over math school rankings, but how many people do calculus beyond their schooling where as many, many people use a foreign language often in their work. It's a non-BS thing people can learn at school and something that Northern Europeans do spectacularly well at.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - RamblingCTO 3y ago
    I disagree heavily. Just because you have trains going everywhere (that's not a Germany-specific thing) doesn't mean they are allowed to be hours late. The transport system is broken, was destroyed by trying to cut costs in the past. Same with schools and educators. And don't get me started on healthcare. Your sentiment is part of the problem to be honest: Germans are always complaining, it's fine as it is bla bla. It is if you compare yourself to third world countries. But we compete with Japan, Switzerland, the nordics and so on. Also note that this is not a sentiment that is only found in Germans but also a lot of (high value) immigrants who move on after touching base. Germany has a lot of potential but utilizes that very little. Why would I recognize anything positive about the transport system that has a high likelihood of making my trip a nightmare? It's literally the most important thing, to get me from a to b. That doesn't work with massive delays, cancellations, reschedulings and I miss my connections.
    - earthnail 3y ago
      For what it’s worth, I’m German and live in Sweden and the train network is significantly worse than in Germany. There are serious structural deficiencies at Deutsche Bahn, absolutely. But the gras is also always greener elsewhere. The nordics don’t have a better train network. It’s bad enough in Sweden that a Chinese company has started offering the MTRX, basically the ICE equivalent between the two largest cities (although much slower, more like an IC) and that’s the best connection you can get. Imagine the outcry if that was the case in Germany for Munich-Berlin…
- barbazoo 3y ago
  In certain parts of Germany the German equivalent of "You really can't complain" is the highest form of praise.
  - croes 3y ago
    The sentence "You really can't complain" is a complain itself.
    - dkga 3y ago
      Yes, never noted that!
croes 3y ago
Incredibly high taxes? Denmark has higher taxes. And don't forget Germany has one of the lowest annual working hours in the world https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm
- RamblingCTO 3y ago
  You're misinformed. Second highest tax burden [1], in Europe and the OECD [2]. [1] https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/global/tax-burden-on-labor-oecd-2021/ https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/global/tax-burden-on-labo... [2] https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/eu/tax-burden-labor-europe-2023/ https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/eu/tax-burden-labor-europ...
  - croes 3y ago
    Never trust a conservative think tank on taxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Foundation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Foundation >Payroll taxes are typically flat-rate taxes levied on wages and are in addition to the taxes on income. In most OECD countries, both the employer and the employee pay payroll taxes. These taxes usually fund specific social programs, such as unemployment insurance, health insurance, and old age insurance. Social security and pesnions aren't financed by taxes, in Germany taxes are not earmarked for a specific purpose. If you would replace social security and pension contributions by private insurances with the same costs people wouldn't have more money available but the Germany's index position would be better. You could even double the costs and the index would claim an advantage for workers even though they would have less money.
    - RamblingCTO 3y ago
      Sooo is statisa [1] also a conservative think tank? I don't see anything wrong with the quote you provided. > Social security and pesnions aren't financed by taxes, in Germany taxes are not earmarked for a specific purpose. Not sure I can follow. Of course the pensions and social security are quite substantially tax funded [2]. [1] https://de.statista.com/infografik/13660/oecd-vergleich-steuern--und-abgaben/ https://de.statista.com/infografik/13660/oecd-vergleich-steu... [2] https://www.ihre-vorsorge.de/rente/nachrichten/haushalt-fuer-rente-und-sozialleistungen-ist-auch-2024-der-groesste-posten https://www.ihre-vorsorge.de/rente/nachrichten/haushalt-fuer...

chironjit 3y ago

The best I'd say is a sense of collectiveness that is somewhat higher than other countries. It's not nationalism. Rather, there is some amount of willingness to give up personal comfort for some sort of general/societal greater good. This is really something I've noticed compared to say the UK, Australia, certain asian countries, etc. Not sure why it hasn't translated to improving bureaucracy.

fleshmonad 3y ago
Can you provide some examples of what germans bind together for the "greater good"? I seem to have missed it.
- Archelaos 3y ago
  Almost one million volunteer firefighters (Freiwillige Feuerwehr). These are 96.95 % of all firefighters. (For comparison: the UK quota is 2.31%.)[1] Very popular to participate especially in many rural parts of Germany. [1] Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiwillige_Feuerwehr#Deutschland https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiwillige_Feuerwehr#Deutschl... (in German)
- ulfw 3y ago
  Following and make the most pedantic rules. Germans loooooove setting rules and expect everyone to follow or else they rat you or or sue you even. (see neighbour conflicts about hedges growing too far etc)
tazjin 3y ago
> The best I'd say is a sense of collectiveness that is somewhat higher than other countries. I wouldn't say that this comes anywhere close to many other countries in Germany. Societal coherence in e.g. Russia or Norway is much higher than in Germany. I think it's rather the other way around: The countries you're comparing to might be exceptionally bad at it, and Germany is average.
- racked 3y ago
  Can you elaborate on societal coherence in Russia? This in particular piques my interest; what I hear from Russia is that it's a place where any interpersonal conflict is resolved with (verbal) violence.

karma_pharmer 3y ago

The hacker subculture there is incredible; closest thing to late-1990s bay area (before the flood of money killed everything) that's still alive today. But yeah, there are a lot of negatives counterbalancing that.

CalRobert 3y ago
Is Chaos Communication Congress worth a visit for an American who speaks crappy German?
- com 3y ago
  Yes. Live translation services are provided for the minority of formal stuff that’s done in German. Drinking beer in the alternative track, everybody understands each other after a couple of drinks even if they didn’t before.

jjgreen 3y ago

The sausage

trashburger 3y ago
Not really, it's just the wurst.

mensetmanusman 3y ago

The most beautiful cities at night, especially Dresden. You never need to own a car, amazing beer, awesome Turkish food, awesome dance clubs in old castles or rundown industrial parks; also life is 10 times better if you're a student :) (I lived in Germany for about a year as an American college exchange student)

Loveaway 3y ago

Orderly, rational people. Hard working, rich country, despite no natural wealth. No cutting corners, one of the reasons bureaucracy is so horrid. You are expected to have your shit together, still people are as lenient as they can be. Things work, you can trust people. Low crime, clean streets. Good sense of morality. Country is capable of much more, still holds itself back a lot, preference in humbleness. Things are built on solid foundations. Not a bad place to be.

blueflow 3y ago
> clean streets Living here, i disagree. Just on my way to the train station i saw at least 10 cigarette butts on the ground. And its like that across the whole city.
- fransje26 3y ago
  I just had some friends visit on the way to their home country, after spending 4 months traveling through Spain. They liked Spain a lot, but the first comment they made when we went for a walk was how clean the streets and the surroundings where. Your cleanliness mileage may vary per Land, I guess.
- epaga 3y ago
  Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not - but in case you're not - seeing "10 cigarette butts" - instead of, say, piles of trash, dung, old broken down cars, and/or drug paraphernalia - seems pretty clean to me, as cities come.
  - shiroiushi 3y ago
    Yeah, it's amazing how different peoples' expectations are. A bunch of cigarette butts would seem horrible compared to a Japanese train station, but compared to anything in Latin America it would be extremely clean.
Rinzler89 3y ago
>rational people Hardly. A lot of people buy into FUD without questioning it. A lot of people never question their government or rules no matter how stupid they are. They'll just tell you to follow the rules even if you explain to them in a 100 page essay why those rules make no sense and are even detrimental. They never acknowledge the possibility that their government/bureaucratic systems in palce can be faulty. If it doesn't work for you, then it must be your fault, not the system's fault. It's the kind of blind trust in the system that lead to the Wirecard scandal happening under the watch of the entire world. Rational people constantly question things, not trust and follow them blindly.

nicbou 3y ago

Mild summers, good work-life balance, the European Union, decent healthcare, ease of travel, nature. Even though I'm currently in a "it's complicated" relationship with Germany, I moved here by choice because I loved the place. These things are still there, but since I'm working so close to Germany's problems, I let it get to me sometimes.

data_maan 3y ago
Doesn't that apply to many other countries as well?

Tainnor 3y ago

A country that is incredibly rich in historical significance (both good and bad), cultural traditions, art (historical and modern), regional variety and nature. Cities are walkable, public transport is mostly decent (it's perfectly fine to live without a car if you're in the city), crime is low, poverty is low, the economy has been tanking a bit recently, but has traditionally been doing well. In terms of mentality, Bavarians are very different from Rhinelanders who are very different from East Germans. Berlin is a bubble in and of itself and can't really be compared to the rest. In general, Germans tend to take comfort in clear rules and structure, and are used to a certain kind of cutting through bullshit, both of which may be a good or a bad thing. I'll also add that, to my knowledge, no other country has reflected its own role in history as deeply and critically as Germany has, which to me comes as a bonus even when there is a tendency to overcorrect. Food is IMHO not great (except Käsespatzle), but beer is some of the best in the world.

data_maan 3y ago
[flagged]
danielbln 3y ago
Don't forget bread. Whenever I travel to the US I'm appalled by what is considered good bread there. Not throwing shade here, it's just what it is. On the flipside, buying Avocados here in Germany is akin to a crime against humanity.
- Tainnor 3y ago
  One of my pet peeves is how Germans have amazing bread, but then put the blandest possible stuff (like very tasteless Cheese, and one leaf of salad) on top of it, while Italians have great stuff to put on bread but the bread itself is so boring.
- chrisandchris 3y ago
  Then travel to Switzerland and IMHO German bread is just average anymore.

rockyj 3y ago

Erm.. You do realize that in almost all indexes that matter, Germany is in the top 5% e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_D... You hear people complaining a lot since they like to and we live with crazy priorities like "time to launch a company in days" but in the real world if we had a choice of where you are born Germany will be high on the list.