5 ms·

I refuse to believe it is worse than France. I trust the Germans to at least be somewhat efficient.

by Biganon 3y ago

nicbou 3y ago
Germans are anything but efficient. At best, they're methodical. Speaking from experience, that is also a lie.
- mtsr 3y ago
  They’re not know for efficiency or being methodical, but for gründlichkeit - being meticulous. Then again, anything like this is a stereotype.
  - nicbou 3y ago
    That is the most accurate term, I agree
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  > Germans are anything but efficient. Germans are (rather) efficient. The German bureacracy isn't. :-)
  - moooo99 3y ago
    Considering these bureacratic organizations are made up of people, most of them German, could you actually conclude that? :-)
    - aleph_minus_one 3y ago
      Quite many German people hate the bureacracy similarly. But most of them feel powerless to change anything. EDIT: But to give more evidence for my claim: violent attacks against government clerks are more and more increasing. I will just post two articles (in German), but it is easy to find many such articles: > https://www.faz.net/aktuell/rhein-main/attacken-auf-amtstraeger-mehren-sich-16543558.html https://www.faz.net/aktuell/rhein-main/attacken-auf-amtstrae... > https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/heilbronn/angriffe-gewalt-behoerden-mitarbeiter-jobcenter-rathaus-beamtenbund-auslaenderamt-inflation-krise-100.html https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/heilbronn/a...
      - moooo99 3y ago
        I know that many people love to hate on bureacracy, but I don't think people actually hate that. I know this sound stupid, but here's the reality: for the most part, those regulations aren't in place because people love bureacracy. They are there to enforce laws and implement measures that the people demand. They don't directly demand them, but whenever the government announces anything, people complain. They either complain that somebody is getting something they feel like they don't deserve, or they complain that they aren't getting something. And because Germans love Bürgerbegehren and suing almost as much as they love complaining, everything has to be checked three times before anybody gets anything.
Rinzler89 3y ago
>I trust the Germans to at least be somewhat efficient. They're eficient at creating more bureaucracy as a universal solution to all problems. Having dealt with Germany I have come to realize that excessive bureaucracy is basically a jobs program and a way for people to cover their ass whenever the shit hits the fan. Something goes wrong and you're the big boss? Add more bureaucracy as your attempt to "fix" the problem and your justification to why your job is valuable to the company. Something goes wrong on your watch? It's not your fault if you followed all the bureaucracy conjure by your bosses.
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  > They're [The Germans are] eficient at creating more bureaucracy as a universal solution to all problems. Never ever confuse Germans with the German government (except if you are looking for trouble :-) ). It is well-known that what are "lawyer jokes" in the USA are "politicians jokes" in Germany.
  - Rinzler89 3y ago
    I didn't confuse anything I meant exactly what I said. To whit: 1. German companies are equally as bureaucratic because the people and society in general are culturally so into it. 2. German government is formed by German people voted by other German people, they aren't ruled by some aliens that came from of the sky, therefore are representative for them.
  - ivan_gammel 3y ago
    German government just reflects the German society, which is happy to come up with an incredibly bureaucratic non-digital process on any random occasion. I was once told by a lawyer assistant in an email, that I need to call them to make an appointment for another call to discuss a billing issue. Needless to say, the matter could be clarified in a few emails, and those are the people who charge 150-200€ per hour. This is the essence of how the things are often done here by businesses which are supposedly rooting for efficiency and profit margins.
- data_maan 3y ago
brnt 3y ago
I've worked in both, plus the Netherlands. France has one forgiving element: usually some room for the human element. Germans civil servants seem happy to apply rules and procedures, even if they are clearly suboptimal. French civil servants would agree it's ridiculous and are more inclined to help you get unstuck if you can show them that you are. France also seemed further along digitizing things. Total duration is probably still a tie: it's all over the map but things can take ages in either country. The Netherlands is great, except when it isn't. If you ever get stuck there, you have no chance convincing anyone. Their believe they have the best (civil) service doesn't help, but it turns out its all highly optimized for 'normal' Dutch citizens. As soon as your deviations from that norm start to add up, you're going to run into unhandled edge cases, which people won't handle (no protocol, and they are not used to using their own brain). "Computer says no" is Dutch (civil) service in a nutshell.
- gryn 3y ago
  The digitization in france in making things worse on the edge though, the system are buggy and now you no longer have that human you can talk to fix things. I remember not being able to create an account because the website password validation regex was buggy, I wrote an email about it and it's probably still not fixed. I've had to read the "compiled" js of the website to understand what was wrong to begin with. I've had administrative processes slightly deviate from the happy path and getting stuck. When you talk to a human now. it's sorry can't do anything it's all online even when you explain that yes you tried other possible contact channels phone,email,in person, etc (email seems to go to /dev/null or get a canned response that clearly didn't read your message). "Computer says no" is more and more of a thing now here in france. it's faster when you on the common happy path but if you aren't you better pray. Also the different services still seem unable to talk to each other even when they are in the same building / same administration but different department. Hopefully they'll improve that in 20 years.
  - brnt 3y ago
    At the very least I'm happy I can still see my pension was registered correctly and downloads the attestations to that effect. All without visiting an office in Paris only open on Thursdays 10:00-10:30am ;)
moooo99 3y ago
I know Germany has this reputation and Germany can be very efficient at times. But the vast majority of the time Germany is anything but efficient. The Administration is particularly bad. Most of the time, they're understaffed and digital infrastructure is completely lacking most of the places. Then, in many cases, there is also a ping-pong in terms of responsibilities. Sometimes your stuff is bouncing between different levels of administration (thank you federalism) and sometimes its between different departments. Its not unheard of that you have to provide the same data in different forms for the different departments working for the same agency. The amount of time I have spend waiting in line to do something as simple as renewing my Perso (national ID) or requesting a passport. When I moved two years ago, I spent 4 hours waiting in line to sign a form stating that I moved here. Waiting for the passport was a similar waiting game (and that is as a German-born citizen, I can't begin to imagine how bad it is when you're also concerned with residency and visa stuff). German companies love to complain about the bureaucracy of the government, but are effectively replicating that same bureaucracy without any need. So no, most interactions aren't efficient unfortunately
Baguette5242 3y ago
I lived in France, in China and now in Germany. I would say that somehow, France and Germany are quite similar, it's just that one suck more than another on specific areas and vice-versa. The net salary is somehow higher in Germany but the amount of subsidies you can get from the state is lower also so it's pretty much the same. I prefer the decentralized aspect of Germany (unlike France where everything is just centralized in Paris and the rest is just Silent Hill) and also the fact that you can just live without a car. From France I prefer the more liberal views on "What the state consider to be a family" which is light years ahead of Germany. This said, if you are a married couple with children, you'll get more money from the state in Germany I believe. I believe that Germany is more suitable for mid-40's traditional family, younger/wilder that that, it can be quite boring. But all of this is just child play compared to how easy things are in China in terms of settle down (based on the experience of someone who has a job with a local company). I am tired of the pretentious western europe politics/administration point of view that immediately ranks everything (including good ideas) coming from Asia/global South as "not transposable to Europe" or just "not as good as our ways".
- jonathanstrange 3y ago
  China has 0.07%, France 10.3%, and Germany 18% immigrants. It's obvious how this explains the difference and why no lessons can be learned from Chinese bureaucracy about how to deal with immigrants.
  - bigbacaloa 3y ago
    [dead]
  - Baguette5242 3y ago
    Exactly what I was referring to in my previous post: _I am tired of the pretentious western europe politics/administration point of view that immediately ranks everything (including good ideas) coming from Asia/global South as "not transposable to Europe" or just "not as good as our ways"._ Did you live in China as an immigrant, did you settle down there for several years, did you have to go through their immigration process ?

I refuse to believe it is worse than France. I trust the Germans to at least be somewhat efficient.

nicbou 3y ago

Germans are anything but efficient. At best, they're methodical. Speaking from experience, that is also a lie.

mtsr 3y ago
They’re not know for efficiency or being methodical, but for gründlichkeit - being meticulous. Then again, anything like this is a stereotype.
- nicbou 3y ago
  That is the most accurate term, I agree
aleph_minus_one 3y ago
> Germans are anything but efficient. Germans are (rather) efficient. The German bureacracy isn't. :-)
- moooo99 3y ago
  Considering these bureacratic organizations are made up of people, most of them German, could you actually conclude that? :-)
  - aleph_minus_one 3y ago
    Quite many German people hate the bureacracy similarly. But most of them feel powerless to change anything. EDIT: But to give more evidence for my claim: violent attacks against government clerks are more and more increasing. I will just post two articles (in German), but it is easy to find many such articles: > https://www.faz.net/aktuell/rhein-main/attacken-auf-amtstraeger-mehren-sich-16543558.html https://www.faz.net/aktuell/rhein-main/attacken-auf-amtstrae... > https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/heilbronn/angriffe-gewalt-behoerden-mitarbeiter-jobcenter-rathaus-beamtenbund-auslaenderamt-inflation-krise-100.html https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/heilbronn/a...
    - moooo99 3y ago
      I know that many people love to hate on bureacracy, but I don't think people actually hate that. I know this sound stupid, but here's the reality: for the most part, those regulations aren't in place because people love bureacracy. They are there to enforce laws and implement measures that the people demand. They don't directly demand them, but whenever the government announces anything, people complain. They either complain that somebody is getting something they feel like they don't deserve, or they complain that they aren't getting something. And because Germans love Bürgerbegehren and suing almost as much as they love complaining, everything has to be checked three times before anybody gets anything.

Rinzler89 3y ago

>I trust the Germans to at least be somewhat efficient. They're eficient at creating more bureaucracy as a universal solution to all problems. Having dealt with Germany I have come to realize that excessive bureaucracy is basically a jobs program and a way for people to cover their ass whenever the shit hits the fan. Something goes wrong and you're the big boss? Add more bureaucracy as your attempt to "fix" the problem and your justification to why your job is valuable to the company. Something goes wrong on your watch? It's not your fault if you followed all the bureaucracy conjure by your bosses.

aleph_minus_one 3y ago
> They're [The Germans are] eficient at creating more bureaucracy as a universal solution to all problems. Never ever confuse Germans with the German government (except if you are looking for trouble :-) ). It is well-known that what are "lawyer jokes" in the USA are "politicians jokes" in Germany.
- Rinzler89 3y ago
  I didn't confuse anything I meant exactly what I said. To whit: 1. German companies are equally as bureaucratic because the people and society in general are culturally so into it. 2. German government is formed by German people voted by other German people, they aren't ruled by some aliens that came from of the sky, therefore are representative for them.
- ivan_gammel 3y ago
  German government just reflects the German society, which is happy to come up with an incredibly bureaucratic non-digital process on any random occasion. I was once told by a lawyer assistant in an email, that I need to call them to make an appointment for another call to discuss a billing issue. Needless to say, the matter could be clarified in a few emails, and those are the people who charge 150-200€ per hour. This is the essence of how the things are often done here by businesses which are supposedly rooting for efficiency and profit margins.
data_maan 3y ago

brnt 3y ago

I've worked in both, plus the Netherlands. France has one forgiving element: usually some room for the human element. Germans civil servants seem happy to apply rules and procedures, even if they are clearly suboptimal. French civil servants would agree it's ridiculous and are more inclined to help you get unstuck if you can show them that you are. France also seemed further along digitizing things. Total duration is probably still a tie: it's all over the map but things can take ages in either country. The Netherlands is great, except when it isn't. If you ever get stuck there, you have no chance convincing anyone. Their believe they have the best (civil) service doesn't help, but it turns out its all highly optimized for 'normal' Dutch citizens. As soon as your deviations from that norm start to add up, you're going to run into unhandled edge cases, which people won't handle (no protocol, and they are not used to using their own brain). "Computer says no" is Dutch (civil) service in a nutshell.

gryn 3y ago
The digitization in france in making things worse on the edge though, the system are buggy and now you no longer have that human you can talk to fix things. I remember not being able to create an account because the website password validation regex was buggy, I wrote an email about it and it's probably still not fixed. I've had to read the "compiled" js of the website to understand what was wrong to begin with. I've had administrative processes slightly deviate from the happy path and getting stuck. When you talk to a human now. it's sorry can't do anything it's all online even when you explain that yes you tried other possible contact channels phone,email,in person, etc (email seems to go to /dev/null or get a canned response that clearly didn't read your message). "Computer says no" is more and more of a thing now here in france. it's faster when you on the common happy path but if you aren't you better pray. Also the different services still seem unable to talk to each other even when they are in the same building / same administration but different department. Hopefully they'll improve that in 20 years.
- brnt 3y ago
  At the very least I'm happy I can still see my pension was registered correctly and downloads the attestations to that effect. All without visiting an office in Paris only open on Thursdays 10:00-10:30am ;)

moooo99 3y ago

I know Germany has this reputation and Germany can be very efficient at times. But the vast majority of the time Germany is anything but efficient. The Administration is particularly bad. Most of the time, they're understaffed and digital infrastructure is completely lacking most of the places. Then, in many cases, there is also a ping-pong in terms of responsibilities. Sometimes your stuff is bouncing between different levels of administration (thank you federalism) and sometimes its between different departments. Its not unheard of that you have to provide the same data in different forms for the different departments working for the same agency. The amount of time I have spend waiting in line to do something as simple as renewing my Perso (national ID) or requesting a passport. When I moved two years ago, I spent 4 hours waiting in line to sign a form stating that I moved here. Waiting for the passport was a similar waiting game (and that is as a German-born citizen, I can't begin to imagine how bad it is when you're also concerned with residency and visa stuff). German companies love to complain about the bureaucracy of the government, but are effectively replicating that same bureaucracy without any need. So no, most interactions aren't efficient unfortunately

Baguette5242 3y ago

I lived in France, in China and now in Germany. I would say that somehow, France and Germany are quite similar, it's just that one suck more than another on specific areas and vice-versa. The net salary is somehow higher in Germany but the amount of subsidies you can get from the state is lower also so it's pretty much the same. I prefer the decentralized aspect of Germany (unlike France where everything is just centralized in Paris and the rest is just Silent Hill) and also the fact that you can just live without a car. From France I prefer the more liberal views on "What the state consider to be a family" which is light years ahead of Germany. This said, if you are a married couple with children, you'll get more money from the state in Germany I believe. I believe that Germany is more suitable for mid-40's traditional family, younger/wilder that that, it can be quite boring. But all of this is just child play compared to how easy things are in China in terms of settle down (based on the experience of someone who has a job with a local company). I am tired of the pretentious western europe politics/administration point of view that immediately ranks everything (including good ideas) coming from Asia/global South as "not transposable to Europe" or just "not as good as our ways".

jonathanstrange 3y ago
China has 0.07%, France 10.3%, and Germany 18% immigrants. It's obvious how this explains the difference and why no lessons can be learned from Chinese bureaucracy about how to deal with immigrants.
- bigbacaloa 3y ago
  [dead]
- Baguette5242 3y ago
  Exactly what I was referring to in my previous post: _I am tired of the pretentious western europe politics/administration point of view that immediately ranks everything (including good ideas) coming from Asia/global South as "not transposable to Europe" or just "not as good as our ways"._ Did you live in China as an immigrant, did you settle down there for several years, did you have to go through their immigration process ?