8 ms·

Really I think this is overdone. I fully appreciate Berlin is disfunctional, but in other regions (I live in Thüringen) things go quite quickly.

nicbou 2y ago
I don't think that it is overdone. It's bad everywhere, and it's much worse in Berlin. If you've experienced anything like a modern bureaucracy, Germany is infuriatingly backwards. The article is painfully accurate down to the minute detail.
- freyfogle 2y ago
  I have lived/worked/banked in four countries (UK, US, ES, DE). Germany is not at the cutting edge, but it is far from the worse. The interactions I have had with bureaucratic systems in Thüringen have all been entirely fine. Friendly people, clear process, done quickly. Obviously that is only an n=1. It is a rural area that is not overloaded as Berlin is. Which country would you consider "modern"? My experiences: In the UK the way you prove who you are is literally a physical copy of your water bill. Spain, some things work well enough, others are insane. US, massive variability from state to state and government department.
  - nicbou 2y ago
    My biggest gripes, summed up: - The requirements are arbitrary, undocumented, and largely depend on how the case worker feels on a given day. Common wisdom is to bring far more documents than asked for, just in case. - Everything is paper-based. You are expected to act as a transport layer between offices that won't talk to each other. Everything is mailed, because digital communications are distrusted and digitalisation lagging far behind. - Everything takes far longer than it should, partly due to the above, and due to chronic understaffing of government offices. This is a problem in all major cities, and many of the smaller ones. In this case, n is a pretty big number backed by the many relocation consultants I work with. You got lucky, and I envy you.
    - freyfogle 2y ago
      Oh for sure it could be much better in Germany, and I hope that rapidly becomes the case. Definitely digitization needs to come faster. My complaint is simply people imagining it is perfect elsewhere. Really that is not the case, no where is perfect. All the people chiming in about the US being so easy, yes, wonderful. Now let's talk about healthcare and how your health insurance is tied to your employer. Everyone who is extolling how simple the UK is, that's lovely. What a shame about brexit though. The point is there are major pains absolutely everywhere.
      - hiq 2y ago
        To your counterexamples: if you move to the US or the UK for a job, you don't really suffer directly from Brexit or healthcare being tied to your unemployment. Sure, these could make things worse in certain cases (let's say you get laid off while in the US and end up having to get your own healthcare for a while). The thing with bureaucracy is that it's part of normal life, there's no way around it. You can assume there's a 20% chance you'd get laid off in the US and that it would be bad, but there's a 100% chance you'll have to get a work or residence permit or something else in Germany, and it seems that the default is a painful process (reading the comments here). > The point is there are major pains absolutely everywhere. There are still places such as Switzerland where things are better though.
        gentleman11 2y ago
        I’m a full time software developer, the lead programmer actually, but I don’t have health care. I have important unfilled prescriptions because of lack of money. So how exactly does a lack of health care not affect people?
        throwaway2037 2y ago
        > I don’t have health care Are you based in the US? How is this possible? I thought it is a requirement to have healthcare now.
  - dpeckett 2y ago
    I can confirm that moving out into the bacon belt of Brandenburg drastically improved the quality of my public services interactions (as an immigrant). Getting an anmeldung done didn't require a 3 hour ordeal and the local Ausländerbehörde answers their emails. My favorite Berlin anecdote is when my wife (then girlfriend) and I first arrived in Germany, she was unemployed for the better part of a year as no-one would give her a chance. She actually got quite depressed about it, and reached out about state sponsored integration courses as the language lessons she was taking were expensive and she wanted to do something more holistic. The authorities told her in no uncertain terms that they didn't care and that there were no places available. My biggest bugbear with Germany is that the state intrudes extensively in your affairs, most of the time they are being benevolent but that intrusion brings in a tremendous amount a bureaucratic baggage. And that baggage is slow, paper based, and becomes a significant barrier for doing anything. In many countries the kind of paperwork you have to slave over here just doesn't exist in the first place. FWIW my wife and I got married in Denmark. It was impossible for my wife to provide an up-to-date (less than six months old) translated copy of her Chinese birth certificate. Theoretically she could have traveled back to china (in the middle of the pandemic) and begged her backwaters local police authority to print a new copy but they weren't obliged to issue her one. Denmark was happy with her passport and some declarations from the local authorities in Germany. Some days I really wonder why I continue to put up with the hassle, probably just sunk cost at this point and stubbornness. Wouldn't recommend Germany for anyone with a low frustration tolerance.
    - dataflow 2y ago
      Interesting, so this means you can go to another country just to get married there? There's no requirement that one of you have some kind of tie to the country (working, or resident, etc.)?
      - dpeckett 2y ago
        Yep the Danes are an entrepreneurial bunch, strict cash for marriage document type deal (but all done very professionally, not some vegas chapel pony show).
- 4ad 2y ago
  As bad as Germany is, it is better than average. Eastern Europe is harder, and Asia borders on impossible. Africa is literally impossible.
  - smabie 2y ago
    Africa and Asia are pretty easy, you just pay a bribe
    - Freedom2 2y ago
      Could you elaborate on this? I had a friend who joked about paying a bribe in Japan or Taiwan, do you think it would work there?
      - amrocha 2y ago
        No
        Freedom2 2y ago
        Any reason why not? I'm genuinely curious about your previous comment.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        amrocha 2y ago
        I'm not the parent commenter, but no you can't bribe people in Taiwan or Japan. If I told you the only way to deal with the Canadian government is bribes, would you believe me? Then why do you believe it when talking about equally advanced countries?
        Freedom2 2y ago
        My apologies, looks like I need to level up my reading comprehension. I think I am still confused with smabie's authorative sounding comment, then. Why would he say that you can just pay a bribe?

nicbou 2y ago

I don't think that it is overdone. It's bad everywhere, and it's much worse in Berlin. If you've experienced anything like a modern bureaucracy, Germany is infuriatingly backwards. The article is painfully accurate down to the minute detail.

freyfogle 2y ago
I have lived/worked/banked in four countries (UK, US, ES, DE). Germany is not at the cutting edge, but it is far from the worse. The interactions I have had with bureaucratic systems in Thüringen have all been entirely fine. Friendly people, clear process, done quickly. Obviously that is only an n=1. It is a rural area that is not overloaded as Berlin is. Which country would you consider "modern"? My experiences: In the UK the way you prove who you are is literally a physical copy of your water bill. Spain, some things work well enough, others are insane. US, massive variability from state to state and government department.
- nicbou 2y ago
  My biggest gripes, summed up: - The requirements are arbitrary, undocumented, and largely depend on how the case worker feels on a given day. Common wisdom is to bring far more documents than asked for, just in case. - Everything is paper-based. You are expected to act as a transport layer between offices that won't talk to each other. Everything is mailed, because digital communications are distrusted and digitalisation lagging far behind. - Everything takes far longer than it should, partly due to the above, and due to chronic understaffing of government offices. This is a problem in all major cities, and many of the smaller ones. In this case, n is a pretty big number backed by the many relocation consultants I work with. You got lucky, and I envy you.
  - freyfogle 2y ago
    Oh for sure it could be much better in Germany, and I hope that rapidly becomes the case. Definitely digitization needs to come faster. My complaint is simply people imagining it is perfect elsewhere. Really that is not the case, no where is perfect. All the people chiming in about the US being so easy, yes, wonderful. Now let's talk about healthcare and how your health insurance is tied to your employer. Everyone who is extolling how simple the UK is, that's lovely. What a shame about brexit though. The point is there are major pains absolutely everywhere.
    - hiq 2y ago
      To your counterexamples: if you move to the US or the UK for a job, you don't really suffer directly from Brexit or healthcare being tied to your unemployment. Sure, these could make things worse in certain cases (let's say you get laid off while in the US and end up having to get your own healthcare for a while). The thing with bureaucracy is that it's part of normal life, there's no way around it. You can assume there's a 20% chance you'd get laid off in the US and that it would be bad, but there's a 100% chance you'll have to get a work or residence permit or something else in Germany, and it seems that the default is a painful process (reading the comments here). > The point is there are major pains absolutely everywhere. There are still places such as Switzerland where things are better though.
      - gentleman11 2y ago
        I’m a full time software developer, the lead programmer actually, but I don’t have health care. I have important unfilled prescriptions because of lack of money. So how exactly does a lack of health care not affect people?
        throwaway2037 2y ago
        > I don’t have health care Are you based in the US? How is this possible? I thought it is a requirement to have healthcare now.
- dpeckett 2y ago
  I can confirm that moving out into the bacon belt of Brandenburg drastically improved the quality of my public services interactions (as an immigrant). Getting an anmeldung done didn't require a 3 hour ordeal and the local Ausländerbehörde answers their emails. My favorite Berlin anecdote is when my wife (then girlfriend) and I first arrived in Germany, she was unemployed for the better part of a year as no-one would give her a chance. She actually got quite depressed about it, and reached out about state sponsored integration courses as the language lessons she was taking were expensive and she wanted to do something more holistic. The authorities told her in no uncertain terms that they didn't care and that there were no places available. My biggest bugbear with Germany is that the state intrudes extensively in your affairs, most of the time they are being benevolent but that intrusion brings in a tremendous amount a bureaucratic baggage. And that baggage is slow, paper based, and becomes a significant barrier for doing anything. In many countries the kind of paperwork you have to slave over here just doesn't exist in the first place. FWIW my wife and I got married in Denmark. It was impossible for my wife to provide an up-to-date (less than six months old) translated copy of her Chinese birth certificate. Theoretically she could have traveled back to china (in the middle of the pandemic) and begged her backwaters local police authority to print a new copy but they weren't obliged to issue her one. Denmark was happy with her passport and some declarations from the local authorities in Germany. Some days I really wonder why I continue to put up with the hassle, probably just sunk cost at this point and stubbornness. Wouldn't recommend Germany for anyone with a low frustration tolerance.
  - dataflow 2y ago
    Interesting, so this means you can go to another country just to get married there? There's no requirement that one of you have some kind of tie to the country (working, or resident, etc.)?
    - dpeckett 2y ago
      Yep the Danes are an entrepreneurial bunch, strict cash for marriage document type deal (but all done very professionally, not some vegas chapel pony show).
4ad 2y ago
As bad as Germany is, it is better than average. Eastern Europe is harder, and Asia borders on impossible. Africa is literally impossible.
- smabie 2y ago
  Africa and Asia are pretty easy, you just pay a bribe
  - Freedom2 2y ago
    Could you elaborate on this? I had a friend who joked about paying a bribe in Japan or Taiwan, do you think it would work there?
    - amrocha 2y ago
      No
      - Freedom2 2y ago
        Any reason why not? I'm genuinely curious about your previous comment.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        amrocha 2y ago
        I'm not the parent commenter, but no you can't bribe people in Taiwan or Japan. If I told you the only way to deal with the Canadian government is bribes, would you believe me? Then why do you believe it when talking about equally advanced countries?
        Freedom2 2y ago
        My apologies, looks like I need to level up my reading comprehension. I think I am still confused with smabie's authorative sounding comment, then. Why would he say that you can just pay a bribe?