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> Working for living is a problem to be solved. I strongly, viscerally disagree with this. People (mostly) need to feel like they are capable agents and also l

> Working for living is a problem to be solved. I strongly, viscerally disagree with this. People (mostly) need to feel like they are capable agents and also like they are contributing to something larger than themselves. I’ve seen friends struggle to get a job and find their place in the world; sitting alone at home and watching TV for weeks straight is an inhuman way to exist, and that’s where a lot of people will end up without work, as the average person seems to be pretty terrible at stimulating themselves intellectually. Note that this doesn’t strictly require capitalism or a 40 hour workweek or anything like that. Since AI is so great at solving everything, maybe one day it can organize the distribution of work to keep the remaining humans busy. I don’t know.

serf 3y ago
a person can be made to feel capable without requiring a living wage. similarly : work exists outside of wages, as do co-operative and unpaid grand works. the (probably fantastical) hope is that when a 'living wage' as a concept disappears it will free up people to pursue things that they're actually passionate about to form an identity and purpose. put from another angle : do you think it's great that people can't find identity without employment? it seems to me we should treat 'lack of identity and self worth due to lack of employment' as a pathology rather than something that we need to feed employment into. the human condition has lasted a lot longer than our current hyper-capitalism-centric ethos about work and passion; if people are becoming worse for it we should probably change the habits and motivations rather than providing their pacifier and acting as if it's a normal human thing for a psyche to dissolve when allowed to act as a free agent.
- subjectsigma 3y ago
  > put from another angle : do you think it's great that people can't find identity without employment? That’s like asking me if I think it’s ‘great’ that people have two legs and a finite lifespan. It just is. What you choose to do under constraints is a big part of your identity. > it seems to me we should treat 'lack of identity and self worth due to lack of employment' as a pathology Man, is there anything that isn’t a pathology these days?
FranzFerdiNaN 3y ago
Your friends struggle because they live in a world that determines someone’s worth by their jobs. Also their ability to pay rent and food and such. So of course in such a world they would be depressed. That doesn’t mean we need some idiot with a higher rank in some office to give us meaningless tasks.
- subjectsigma 3y ago
  Do you think cheetahs struggle with the fact that they have to work hard every day to kill other living, feeling creatures just to survive?
fragmede 3y ago
> sitting alone at home and watching TV for weeks straight is an inhuman way to exist It is, but I'd argue that's a failure of imagination on their part to do anything else other than watch TV. There are many opportunities to volunteer somewhere and get engaged with a community, but they have to get off their couch to do it. (don't even need to get off the couch, given the right set of skills.)
- musicale 3y ago
  When TV and virtual worlds are more appealing than the real world, which one are people going to choose?
  - fragmede 3y ago
    Escaping reality is a time honored tradition, whether it be chemical, digital, or biological. Heroin addicts are looking to escape just as much as TV addicts. People are going to choose what they chose. Naively I choose to believe that people are eventually able to choose differently, and choose life.
musicale 3y ago
> sitting alone at home and watching TV for weeks straight is an inhuman way to exist, and that’s where a lot of people will end up without work Wall•E predicted a world of rich, fat humans amusing and eating themselves to death. It got the rich part wrong.
- pixl97 3y ago
  I think you forgot about the other part of Wall-e.... where everyone left on the planet after the ship departed died a horrible death in a cloud of pollution. The people on the ship where the 1%ers.
onel 3y ago
> People (mostly) need to feel like they are capable agents and also like they are contributing to something larger than themselves. 100%, but that doesn't mean it has to be work. That doesn't have to be a job, especially one that you enjoy only 30% of the time. Purpose can come form lots of things, but we just push everyone to make that thing commercial, part of capitalism

serf 3y ago

a person can be made to feel capable without requiring a living wage. similarly : work exists outside of wages, as do co-operative and unpaid grand works. the (probably fantastical) hope is that when a 'living wage' as a concept disappears it will free up people to pursue things that they're actually passionate about to form an identity and purpose. put from another angle : do you think it's great that people can't find identity without employment? it seems to me we should treat 'lack of identity and self worth due to lack of employment' as a pathology rather than something that we need to feed employment into. the human condition has lasted a lot longer than our current hyper-capitalism-centric ethos about work and passion; if people are becoming worse for it we should probably change the habits and motivations rather than providing their pacifier and acting as if it's a normal human thing for a psyche to dissolve when allowed to act as a free agent.

subjectsigma 3y ago
> put from another angle : do you think it's great that people can't find identity without employment? That’s like asking me if I think it’s ‘great’ that people have two legs and a finite lifespan. It just is. What you choose to do under constraints is a big part of your identity. > it seems to me we should treat 'lack of identity and self worth due to lack of employment' as a pathology Man, is there anything that isn’t a pathology these days?

FranzFerdiNaN 3y ago

Your friends struggle because they live in a world that determines someone’s worth by their jobs. Also their ability to pay rent and food and such. So of course in such a world they would be depressed. That doesn’t mean we need some idiot with a higher rank in some office to give us meaningless tasks.

subjectsigma 3y ago
Do you think cheetahs struggle with the fact that they have to work hard every day to kill other living, feeling creatures just to survive?

fragmede 3y ago

> sitting alone at home and watching TV for weeks straight is an inhuman way to exist It is, but I'd argue that's a failure of imagination on their part to do anything else other than watch TV. There are many opportunities to volunteer somewhere and get engaged with a community, but they have to get off their couch to do it. (don't even need to get off the couch, given the right set of skills.)

musicale 3y ago
When TV and virtual worlds are more appealing than the real world, which one are people going to choose?
- fragmede 3y ago
  Escaping reality is a time honored tradition, whether it be chemical, digital, or biological. Heroin addicts are looking to escape just as much as TV addicts. People are going to choose what they chose. Naively I choose to believe that people are eventually able to choose differently, and choose life.

musicale 3y ago

> sitting alone at home and watching TV for weeks straight is an inhuman way to exist, and that’s where a lot of people will end up without work Wall•E predicted a world of rich, fat humans amusing and eating themselves to death. It got the rich part wrong.

pixl97 3y ago
I think you forgot about the other part of Wall-e.... where everyone left on the planet after the ship departed died a horrible death in a cloud of pollution. The people on the ship where the 1%ers.

onel 3y ago

> People (mostly) need to feel like they are capable agents and also like they are contributing to something larger than themselves. 100%, but that doesn't mean it has to be work. That doesn't have to be a job, especially one that you enjoy only 30% of the time. Purpose can come form lots of things, but we just push everyone to make that thing commercial, part of capitalism