4 ms·

Easy: If this is proven to be a criminal act, even of criminal negligence, charge not only the people making decisions, the board members, but also shareholder

Easy: If this is proven to be a criminal act, even of criminal negligence, charge not only the people making decisions, the board members, but also shareholders, relative to their holdings. Including grouped stocks such as funds. All it will take is once for this to happen and shareholders to actually think about the repercussions of “investing” in corporations that do this kind of thing.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> All it will take is once for this to happen and shareholders to actually think about the repercussions of “investing” in corporations that do this kind of thing Right, you wouldn’t invest in American business, period. (Also, how do you criminally charge someone on a pro rata basis? Do you send every American with a pension to jail for 1/31,000,000th the jail time?)
- flandish 2y ago
  >pro rata Yes. Yes you do. You set a minimum then fine below that minimum.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    At that point you’ll need to go full Soviet. Seize resources and have the state deploy them. Because in no rational world would someone accept criminal liability on behalf of someone they do not control. So to stop a capital exodus, you’d need to seize the means of production (and incur the stasis that comes from centralising economic decision making among the political class). Would be pretty convenient for America if China or Russia adopted your proposal…
    - flandish 2y ago
      …I’m ok with a classless, stateless, moneyless, communist society. This does not worry me.
jdlshore 2y ago
Easy? You’re letting your outrage short-circuit your brain. There’s no way you’ve thought this ridiculous proposal through. Boeing is part of the S&P 500. Almost every American who has stocks is going to have a fund that includes Boeing. That includes people with 401Ks, so basically everyone in the middle class. You’re talking about charging a 100 million people. Okay, so maybe that’s what you intended. Now what? Does everybody now have a criminal record? What exactly are they charged with? Negligent homicide? A fraction of a percent of the deaths from the 737 Max? Who charges them? How does it get through the courts? What are the exact consequences, and why does Joe Random Schmoe deserve those consequences? Let’s see you actually think this through.
- flandish 2y ago
  Like I said - all it will take is once. Below a certain holding quantity, fine the shareholders. I didn’t say it was simple. Capitalism has destroyed more lives than it’s really worth. If it wants to keep existing its capital owners should be held responsible.
rhelz 2y ago
> If this is proven to be a criminal act So who committed the crime? The exec who wanted to save money? Saving money is the prime directive. Why is it his fault that he was given bad advice by his engineers about it? Did the engineers commit the crime? Does your computer software have no bugs in it? Arn't the testers and inspectors supposed to give the proper feedback? Did the testers and inspectors commit the crime? Well, some of those testers and inspectors worked for Boeing, some worked for the FAA--and some worked for the people who bought the airplanes. If there was a serious problem, surely some of them would have spoken up... Exactly who was the criminal? Who is guilty of "criminal neglect?"
- dumpsterlid 2y ago
  [dead]
- flandish 2y ago
  > Saving money is the prime directive This is what makes all of capitalism deplorable - and sometimes criminal. When people are hurt - even knowingly - the owners need to be held to task.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> All it will take is once for this to happen and shareholders to actually think about the repercussions of “investing” in corporations that do this kind of thing Right, you wouldn’t invest in American business, period. (Also, how do you criminally charge someone on a pro rata basis? Do you send every American with a pension to jail for 1/31,000,000th the jail time?)

flandish 2y ago
>pro rata Yes. Yes you do. You set a minimum then fine below that minimum.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  At that point you’ll need to go full Soviet. Seize resources and have the state deploy them. Because in no rational world would someone accept criminal liability on behalf of someone they do not control. So to stop a capital exodus, you’d need to seize the means of production (and incur the stasis that comes from centralising economic decision making among the political class). Would be pretty convenient for America if China or Russia adopted your proposal…
  - flandish 2y ago
    …I’m ok with a classless, stateless, moneyless, communist society. This does not worry me.

jdlshore 2y ago

Easy? You’re letting your outrage short-circuit your brain. There’s no way you’ve thought this ridiculous proposal through. Boeing is part of the S&P 500. Almost every American who has stocks is going to have a fund that includes Boeing. That includes people with 401Ks, so basically everyone in the middle class. You’re talking about charging a 100 million people. Okay, so maybe that’s what you intended. Now what? Does everybody now have a criminal record? What exactly are they charged with? Negligent homicide? A fraction of a percent of the deaths from the 737 Max? Who charges them? How does it get through the courts? What are the exact consequences, and why does Joe Random Schmoe deserve those consequences? Let’s see you actually think this through.

flandish 2y ago
Like I said - all it will take is once. Below a certain holding quantity, fine the shareholders. I didn’t say it was simple. Capitalism has destroyed more lives than it’s really worth. If it wants to keep existing its capital owners should be held responsible.

rhelz 2y ago

> If this is proven to be a criminal act So who committed the crime? The exec who wanted to save money? Saving money is the prime directive. Why is it his fault that he was given bad advice by his engineers about it? Did the engineers commit the crime? Does your computer software have no bugs in it? Arn't the testers and inspectors supposed to give the proper feedback? Did the testers and inspectors commit the crime? Well, some of those testers and inspectors worked for Boeing, some worked for the FAA--and some worked for the people who bought the airplanes. If there was a serious problem, surely some of them would have spoken up... Exactly who was the criminal? Who is guilty of "criminal neglect?"

dumpsterlid 2y ago
[dead]
flandish 2y ago
> Saving money is the prime directive This is what makes all of capitalism deplorable - and sometimes criminal. When people are hurt - even knowingly - the owners need to be held to task.